cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/297928
As you have all noticed, this seems to be a point of contention here. This is a good thing, since it means someone will learn something.
Now we seem to be all over the place, with this general area of thought, provoking many questions. Whether or not PatSocs are socially conservative, what is position on social conservatism? Many of us are very young, both in age and ML experience, so an online discussion would be a great learning tool.
- Are socially conservative individuals allowed to be apart of the leftist movement?
- A. Are socially conservative individuals victims of bourgeois propaganda? -B. If socially conservative people are turned away by the left, where do they go? -C. How high of a position would a social conservative be allowed in a ML party? -D. How has or will MLs educate socially conservative folk? -E. &tc, &tc.
What exactly is Patriotism? -A. Does patriotism depend on culture? -B Is possible for a distinction between patriotism for a country and wanting to abolish the state? -C. Is patriotism corrupted in the Core? -D How have post imperialist countries with Communist experiments built patriotism? -E. &Tc &TC
Who even are the PatSocs? -A. If the label is too convuluted, should we make a distinction between Maupin and American exceptionalists? -B. Who of the leaders do we consider MLs? -C. Should patriotic socialist be distinct from socialism or is inherent in socialism? -D. How much do WE even know if PatSocs? -E. &Tc, &tc
We can look at the USSR and GDR for these questions. Remember the Hammer and Sickel came from somewhere.
Things to look out for about the US: -It is the imperialist power, AND a settler state. -Low levels of cultural development -The culture that is there is taken from marginalized groups. -Americas are the most propagandized people in the World. -It is huge and incredibly diverse
More questions about the US could follow: -Should the US be balkanized? If so how does patriotism be built in balkanized regions? -How does land back go about? Will indigenous countries emerge, and if so should we reconsider American MLs as different MLs for the Regions in North America. -If see different nations and regions in North America how does that affect culture? Is the question of how we view the land a prerequisite to discussing patriotism, is it contradictory to call yourself an American Patriot if you decide to divide up the land until regions?
There is so much potential for deep political for North American based Comrades, this is a rabbit hole I do want to delve into. I’ll cross post this to GZD but I want it mainly on Leftist Infighting.
This is a Dengist community in favor of Bashar al-Assad with no information that can lead to the arrest of Hillary Clinton, our fellow liberal and queen. This community is not ironic. We are Marxists-Leninists.
If you haven’t already found it, this GitHub page is an excellent collection of sources about socialism, imperialism, and other relevant topics, made by @dessalines and others.
We have a Matrix homeserver and a private Matrix room. See this thread for more information.
Theses on Mexicanism, Americanism, and Critical Patriotism
Woah. I have never read anything that could explain so much in such smooth caliber.
Do you have any more of this line of thought, from this person or general theory?
I would love to hear more about Mexicanism.
AMLO please make the Mexican USSR a reality, and liberate the American southwest. 🙏
Edit: This is excellent.
Who is Paul J. Sakai?
Nice job critically looking at the contents of my post. AGAIN, historically, unions in the US failed due to internalized racism, distancing themselves from communism through anti-russian/pro-nationalist sentiment, and through opportunists in organizing positions focusing bureaucracy toward cooperation with the US government. The reason I quote Sakai is because he very conveniently points out in the same paragraph (so I don’t have to quote 12 different books and research papers) that black organizers commonly resisted anti-communist sentiment and situations of their leadership getting in bed with Democrats. Orgs with racist sentiments most often collapsed quickest. This is not a controversial fact regardless of who’s saying it.
Maybe you guys should up your game and show the same intellectual rigor in disproving my points rather than making fake little “gotchas” because someone who actually put in the work hurt your feelings.
The documents in second link say that Paul J. Sakai was born in 1917, got his undergraduate degree from the from the University of Washington in 1940, and was unable to complete his graduate work because of his military service in 1978. The rest of the files describes his testimony to the Commission of Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians in 1981 as his family was sent to Ninidoka Relocation Center in Idaho during the 40’s (WWII). The Commission heard from more than 750 witnesses, which tells me that he is one of many Japanese individuals who was affected by American internment camps.
I found a picture of this gravestone bearing Paul J. Sakai’s name, birth date (i.e. August 4, 1917), and death date. If this is the same Paul J. Sakai described in the documents you linked, he would’ve been 64 in 1981 (the time of his testimony), which means that he died shortly after giving it in 1984. I believe that the Paul J. Sakai in the documents you linked and the dead man are the same person since it’s common for American military personnel to be buried at Arlington National Cemetery.
It could be that Paul J. Sakai, the American military veteran, wrote Settlers in 1983 shortly before his death in 1984. But then you need to explain the publication of these later works: The Dangerous Class and Revolutionary Theory (2017), Learning from an Unimportant Minority (2015), Basic Politics of Movement Security (2014), The Ideas of Black Genocide in the Amerikkkan Mind (2009), and The Shock of Recognition (2002). These books were supposedly written by J. Sakai according to this website.
There’s a lot of information you can use here to find more evidence that’ll possibly back up your claim. For example, you can find J. Sakai’s birth record and see if he was born in 1917, graduated from university of washington in 1940, joined the military on January 23, 1941 at Fort Bragg, had family sent to Ninidoka Relocation Center, gave a testimony to the the Commission in 1981, wrote Settlers in 1983, and then died in 1984. Then find evidence showing that the books above were not written by J. Sakai, but someone else.
It could also be a coincidence that there is someone named Paul J. Sakai and J. Sakai who lived in the U.S. at one time. Maybe “Sakai” is a popular Japanese last name like “Smith” is in America.
According to the author’s note on Settlers, the book was published long after it was written. The reason for this being that Sakai originally didn’t want to publish it, but was persuaded by those he worked with. In light of this, I don’t think these later writings disprove the connection, because these could always have been published posthumously.
I can’t. There is very little public information about him. It’s unknown even if J Sakai is a pseudonym or not.
Maybe, but that’s only a possible explanation if we’re assuming J Sakai = Paul J. Sakai and that he died in 1984. Since we know so little about J Sakai and don’t have an explicit reason to link the two, I don’t think this assumption can be derived by the evidence you provided. The ambiguity around J Sakai personally makes me want to avoid over-speculation.
I found this written in 2002, which claims to be authored by J Sakai and others, in the anarchist library. It says this about Sakai:
This article was also referenced. It was supposedly written by Sakai himself:
I haven’t read either of these articles. I bring them up because if they were truly co-authored or authored by Sakai, then it is unlikely that he died in 1984 because the events he discussed happened in 1986 and 2002. This is assuming that J Sakai is not a pseudonym (i.e. a real man). I would have no way of knowing ofc
But I was wondering why so little is known about J Sakai. Is it because he’s working with the U.S. government? I haven’t looked into Sakai’s character so I wouldn’t feel confident claiming that. But then I came up with a slightly more plausible explanation: there is probably zero information available about the man because his overall politics are anarchist/mlm adjacent. I highly doubt that you will be able to find in depth information about any of the authors on anarchistlibrary, etc. It could be because they’re all working with the government, or because anarchism (or mlm-ism) is not an active, popular movement in the U.S. with noteworthy leaders.
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Yo that is some damning evidence right there. edit Wait is Paul J Sakai the same person as J. Sakai? edit In https://blog.pmpress.org/authors-artists-comrades/j-sakai/ there’s an excerpt wherein J Sakai appears to claim they were in high school in the 1950s, but this letter from MIS is from 1946. J Sakai does say they were a veteran. If they were in high school in 1950, the earliest they could have been born would have been 1932. I guess it’s possible these are the same people.
Anyone want to try to get a FOIA request going?
It’s hard to know for sure. For a normal figure, it would be pretty easy to prove/disprove if these are the same people. But I can’t find much basic information about J Sakai.
Even if they are not the same, Sakai still has some sketchy connections. Skeptomai’s substack goes into better detail on this.
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Ah yes. Marx was right, you know. What he did not seen, because he couldn’t, although he predicted it somewhat, was imperialism. As usual, the difference is quantitative, not qualitative. What Sakai suggest is basically “end of a history” for the part of class struggle, an undialectic nonsense.
What are you even talking about? Sakai has anti-imperial aims like every other communist and sprinkles Lenin quotes throughout his work. It is not un-marxist to believe that the United States cannot be rehabilitated. Lenin was right about the class contradictions in the US but he was objectively wrong in his optimism of the American working class given that western socialism failed where socialism in the global south didn’t.
Compare with Sakai, who sounds almost exactly like Lenin but with a little Gramscian twist to account for the failures of 20th century western socialism:
I can also quote mine Lenin to “prove” various things. Like Martov did for example, or Trotsky.
I just can’t see where is this sakaism leading. To Black Hammer? To race war either instead or combined with class war? Nor i nor any other ML negates the importance of issue of race in USA, but Sakai just writes off majority of population of US. Also again, Sakai wrote his book in 1983. Even if it was 100% true back then, conditions changed dramatically in 1991, though it did added to his narration, so growing popularity of his book in 2010 up till now is understandable given the decades of the “end of history” but now the situation is changing.
Overall, we will see. I just hope that no one hopes for sudden change in US. It will come but as the dead center of imperialism, it will come last. Or maybe not last, who know. I don’t and book from 1983 certainly not either. Even Lenin was sometimes terribly wrong about major things less distant in time, like he predicted revolutionary victory in Europe in 1918+.
Tbh, I think the crux of his analysis, which mirrors mine, is that the US can be fixed BUT it will require a lot of white people to get their heads out of their asses and stop acting like self-centered labor aristocrats. In the absence of some kind of mass epiphany of racial solidarity, the US is going to be plunged into straight fascism before things get better. We’re watching it happen right now.
I agree with this too, just i didn’t understood Sakai’s book like that.
Also to add, i havent read Sakais book, but i do know that the group that really popularized it, MIM (Maoist Internationalist Movement) were an extremely secretive Gang of 4 maoist third worldist group. They believed that USSR and Deng Xiaopings China were social imperialist, capitalist and revisionist, that the Cultural Revolution and the Gang of 4 were great, and that white americans are all exploiters and will never be proletarian (which is unmarxist bs as you already said). This group was very secretive and dissolved in 2008. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about them and J Sakai.
Its the best US history book, no wonder you haven’t read it, and are a patsoc.
All MLs are patriotic, proletarian patriots. Im european, and here all communist parties acknowledge this, from the spanish, greek, finnish, russian, moldovan, ukrainian, etc. Even CPUSA akcnowledges it, only maoist ultraleftists deny this. I havent read Sakais book so i wont comment on it, but isnt Sakai maoist? I wouldnt make my gospel a guy who is so “materialist” he thinks China is capitalist and imperialist.
Source? Most MLs adhere to proletarian internationalism, and the right of nations to self-determination, not “patriotism”.
I’m not in CPUSA, but iirc a few months back, luckily they dismissed a few patsocs. Its good to see them extricate themselves of opportunist notions of patriotism.
Not sure, I never got that inkling reading the book. He also wrote it a bit before MLM was synthesized, so I don’t think that applies. I remember reading an interview with him where he admires Mao, as we all do.
So did Parenti, western leftists having dogshit takes on China is nothing new, and is also no reason to dismiss their views on non-china topics.
Ok, you want sources, ill give em to you.
Article by General Secretary of CPUSA Joe Sims defending working class patriotism from 2014:
Article by the Spanish Communist Party (PCE) defending socialist patriotism from 2020 (in spanish):
2 Articles from the Greek Communist Party (KKE) defending socialist patriotism from 2000 (in greek):
An article by the Italian Communist Party (PCI) (not the original since it dissolved, an ML splinter) defending socialist patriotism (in italian):
All of these countries are imperialist, and one (the USA) is even settler colonialist. Does CPUSA support colonialism? No! It explictly supports land back, but proletarian patriotism isnt incompatible with that, in fact its fully compatible. Same with european countries, antiimperialism and proletarian patriotism go hand in hand.
Sakai have some good points, especially for the time when he wrote this book, but somehow sakaists never noticed it’s 2022 and end of history has ended and the situation is changing.
Also i am really bewildered how anyone who even heard about dialectical materialism can took the Sakai conclusion for granted.
From Settlers by J. Sakai:
You are all aware of this and have no shame in calling out liberal-reactionary elements of the “Left.” But we need to maintain an awareness that conservatism and racism are permanently interlinked. In an example of historical analysis of the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations), we don’t have a critique of historical Unions themselves so much as the reactionary splitting of the proletariat perpetrated by a trade union such that it was eventually easily co-opted by national interests:
Now I’d like to interrupt with a quote from Women, Race, and Class by Angela Davis:
Back to Settlers, we can see the effects racism within an org has: the white-dominated reactionary elements of the AFL (of which the CIO was once a part) took the center stage of national politics and were thus integrated into the patriotism of U.S. Hegemony:
Similar to the CIO, we can see similar shifts in the character of the early NAACP as they prioritized patriotism and distanced themselves from communism, thus becoming the liberal institution we know today. In Hammer and Hoe by Robin D. G. Kelley, we see the proletarian black members of org fight to be on the side of the communists, but are rebuffed by institutional strategists:
This is not a new strategy. The relationship between patriotism and racism is very old in the Americas. From Black Reconstruction in America by W.E.B. Du Bois we get a description of the ineffective character of the U.S. Democratic party:
(PART 1 OF 3)
“Lenin on his own part several times purposefully reminded his European comrades that the original “proletariat” — of Imperial Rome — did not work, but was supported by the surpluses of slave labor. As the lowest free class of Roman citizens, their only duty was to father new soldiers for the Roman Legions (which is why they were called “proletarii” in Latin) while they lived off government subsidies.”
I want to point out how this view by marx and engels was wrong, parentti’s book “the murder of julius Caesar” talks about rome with an materialistic point of view and how the information about rome was tainted by the burgeoise intelingentsia, on how the people that writed about rome and the roman people where rich aristocratic assholes, that never worked hard on their lifes and aways looked at the working class on general with disgust. This was an misunderstanding and an lack of proper information by marx and engels and should not be seen as fact, but as how the burgeoise manipulation of midia gos beyond our own ages, and how they will make you sheer for the opressors, and opress the opressed.
That’s fair and I will admit it’s a bad or mired example. I don’t think the overall point of “the proletariat is not infallible” is invalid, however. It’s a logical conclusion that doesn’t necessarily need an ancient example to justify a list of modern examples with far more records.
In fact, the racism inherent to western patriotism goes far far back to the establishment of racismas a concept in the Americas as slave populations slowly but surely Christianized and local mixed-race people began to gain power in Carribean politics. European settlers needed a bulwark against potential slave revolts, so they used patriotism to the mother country as an ideological thread tying white settlers to the nobility and the bourgeoise. From Before Haiti: Race and Citizenship in French Saint-Domingue by John D. Garrigus:
To add context here: Petit’s quote here is from his book titled Le Patriotisme Américain or “American Patriotism.”
Now to tie this in to the modern era, I will take a quote from The Possessive Investment in Whiteness by George Lipsitz:
As stated in multiple quotes above, people of color do not see Western countries (esp America) and their patriotism as worthy ideas but as colonial projects. Modern patriotism only serves to rehabilitate the injustices perpetrated by national institutions. We can expand on this with a snippet from Michael Parenti’s Superpatriotism:
(PART 2 OF 3)
These sorts of patriotic splits are dangerous to workers parties (esp in western countries) and can weaken them to the often simultaneous rise of fascist movements. From Fascism in Germany: How Hitler Destroyed the World’s Most Powerful Labour Movement by Robert Black:
Adding my own analysis to this: trade unionism is making a comeback in the US (particularly in warehousing and service industries) and it has an anti-racist and pro-lgbt character based on what I’ve read about their efforts. This is both a good place to be in and a very tenuous-to-bad place to be in. We can see the rise of white nationalism in response to local community organizing (often around social democrats or democratic socialists as in the Weimar Republic).
In this case there are ideological distractions from both the “left” and right. As you’re all aware, pro-NATO “leftists” seek to co-opt the movement through liberal-style idpol and prevent on-the-ground movements from taking on an internationalist character. My opinion is that modern right-wing patsocs are part of a strategy to distance the largely white middle-class marxist leninists (there are ML PoC obviously, even some black/indigenous orgs, but that’s not how MLs are perceived as a subculture) from the lower rungs of the proletariat who know on-the-ground strategy but not history. I think this is so that workers parties get straight to being co-opted and reactionary before the on-the-ground movements even have a chance to organize around them (unlike past movements where the reactionary orgs were platformed out of on-the-ground movements). In this way, on-the-ground organizers will become alienated from a white middle class communism that doesn’t have space for them, and once isolated they will be easier to pick off.
This is why whenever Patsocs come up, I’m critical of their “MAGA are just misunderstood” takes. MAGA proles are the engine of white supremacy and focusing on them and not the very real organizing happening among poor workers, BIPOC, and LGBT people is putting energy in the wrong place. The revolutionary energy growing in the west is forming around people the MAGA-right wants to exterminate. Look at the conservative list of acceptable targets and you’ll find those people the most active in the streets lighting junk on fire and getting their co-workers into union votes.
Thank you for this comrade, we can’t let these patsoc opportunists confuse the issue, and think that reactionary “patriots” can bring about socialism. If socialism ever does come to an imperial core country, it will be the mostly non-white, anti racist and unpatriotic city dwellers, for whom the state has done no favors, who bring it about.
I wouldn’t immediately discredit poor countryfolk. Outside of the big coastal cities, they can often tend to inhabit the same spaces as poc both physically and socioeconomically. The challenge is in creating a coalition where they see themselves as being on the same side (for example, if they all work on the same factory line or in the same big box store).
My main contention is with the middle class, as they tend to have more objections to strategy when it comes down to it, having been bought off by the bourgeoise with a single-family home in a “quiet” neighborhood and two SUVs. A lot of the libs people here shit on every day tend to have a very middle class perspective of civility. And the middle class MAGA are entrenched not just by the aesthetics of conservatives gesturing at them but also by the relatively cushy lifestyle that they feel they’ve “earned.” The poorest whites, by contrast, can feel just as abandoned by the system as poc, but they turn toward conservatism mainly due to the vague gestures as protectionism from further poverty, which still has class aristocratic character, but can be leveraged if they have exposure to cultures outside of tiny monoethnic country towns.
As far as general strategy for white people, socialists should be focusing on downwardly mobile urban libs and poor suburban conservatives who’ve recently moved from the country looking for work in the city, because both of these groups are currently having their worlds rocked by exposure to people different from them and their own finanical precarity. The first problem is that they both require extremely different emotional skillsets to convince of your position in discussions. The second problem is that getting them to a place where they won’t be reactionary can take months or years, and even after being de-radicalized they can still shift the movement toward themselves rather than the proletariat as a whole. It’s just something that requires attention and consideration.
Patriotic socialism is cool only for countries that have an history
I think in order to have any kind of debate patsoc itself would have to be defined, and the idea of “patriotism” in the context of the USA would have to be discussed and agreed upon as well.
Personally, I’m not a fan of patriotic socialism.
Also, they should read American and European history in greater detail.
Psst the real conversation’s in the link, the algorithm prefers GZD even if there’s less comments, so it’s just a gateway drug. Shh
nah i personally can’t wait until the U.S is obliterated off the map.
Preferrably without too much spilled blood, especially not nuclear war since that would fuck up the planet even if somehow not spilled all over everywhere, but i won’t cry over civil war 2.0. I think the least bloody roption would be balkanisation.
i’m really just talking about washington D.C with like an imperialism seeking missile
I gotcha, but personally don’t wanna die in a Nuclear holocaust.
This crosspost is more a Batsignal to go to the other post. Sorry y’all. Wanna make that more clear.
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Forgive me you might want tocopy and paste this to the other thread since the discussion is formulating there.