Dear Lemmy, as you may well be aware, racial hierarchies and colonial empires are doing good in these early 2020s. In particular, in the days of the war in Ukraine, it’s important to point out the fascist tendencies at play.
Fascism and racial/cultural hierarchies are on the rise on every continent, from Turkey to Brasil, to China, to France, to India… Fuck all Nations! Destroy all borders, and long live autonomous Communes!
On the Ukraine side of things, there’s a bunch of neo-nazis in the army, as well as more traditional nationalists/fascists. It’s not exactly a secret, and the former president was very close to these circles:
On the Russian side of things, there’s also a bunch of neo-nazis in the army as well as traditional nationalists/fascists. It’s not exactly a secret either:
Both governments have long fought against popular movements and anarchist/antifascist networks. Both countries have neo-nazi/fascist militias parading down the streets and beating/killing random people. Just like France or USA have them too.
Don’t trust me? Check out the wikipedia page on neo-nazism. Follow their sources and make yourself an opinion. It’s very instructive, although very incomplete. I definitely recommend to check out the Racism in Ukraine and Racism in Russia pages, too.
Please remember that when you try to paint one side of a conflict as the good anti-nazi hero. Nazis are fucking everywhere. Fascists and nazis have been running the show in much of the world even after WWII ended. Nazi collaborators were responsible for France’s war against the algerian people, and their grandchildren (spiritual or biological) are responsible for today’s new repression, wars and genocides.
We need to dismantle nazism and fascism at its root: the nation State and cultural supremacy. Yes, you should be proud of your local culture and land. No, that does not justify diminishing other cultures/lands.
All we exploited/struggling people have to stand in solidarity with other people struggling for freedom and equality across the planet. No border divides us in the international socialist/anarchist movement. We will fight against all Empires for autonomous communities worldwide!
PS: If you need more detailed resources on neo-nazi/neo-fascist/nationalist/traditionalist on the rise in a specific country/region, feel free to ask. There are chances i have some good articles/documentaries, and if not i’ve got ideas about who to ask.
Also, China’s government is best described as fascism.
I feel like a lot of these people started showing up when it because public knowledge that lemmy.ml allows covid disinformation
I feel like a lot of these people are just marxism gone wrong. Add a pinch of stalinism, and a bit of leninist/trotskyist discourse, and what you have is uncritical support on any tyrannical power that’s not the USA/UK. In the real world, in the unions and in the squats, we call these people fascists (of the red-brown kind because they use red words to promote fascism).
I mean, just imagine going to your union comrades and saying invading a sovereign country is justifiable in the name of socialism. You’ll get weird looks and nervous laughter. If you add the bit about the persons leading the invasion are siding with oligarchs and having privatized the entire country since the USSR collapsed, you’ll get called a scab and may come home with a few bruises.
The one who is grifting is you, very well knowing Russia and China have been historically the main protagonists against Nazism. You aid English Fascism, and that isbclear from the Lithuania link you use to smear Russia.
That zooms out so far from the specifics of the Ukraine/Russia comparison as to relocate this whole conversation to a different context, totally unrelated to the conflict that this thread is intending to speak to.
It’s true that USSR expended lives and resources at tremendous scales to fight Nazis, and it’s true that nazis and nationalists are attracted to military and exist in present day Russian and Ukranian armies. Those things aren’t mutually exclusive, and the historical record of the 20th century is too remote to offer any meaningful clarification.
At best it just invites you to make indirect, speculative inferences. We have much better, more current reporting we can and should rely on.
I think, as OP pointed out, it’s inherently the case that these elements are disproportionately attracted to armed forces, and that in and of itself is adequate to explain their presence in the army of any nation with cultural exposure to nazism.
That’s a diagnosis that’s relevant to nazism as present day social phenomena, and more pertinent to the conflict than the historical record you are choosing to substitute in it’s place.
Comparing the existence of Nazism in Russia to formalised Nazi battalions and Nazi influence in government in Ukraine is roughly about as honest as comparing how much USA/UK have done for human rights versus the atrocities they have committed around the world.
This discussion is a disingenuous and deflective attempt in this particular timeframe of events going on right now, to whitewash Nazism in Ukraine and the atrocities committed in Donbas in the past 8 years.
To prove that this is a disingenuous attempt by OP, one of the very first Lemmy comments made related to ongoing events was:
They only bother to point out the 0.001% existence of Nazism in Russia, compared to what is blatantly observable in Ukraine. And OP exactly did this by posting 1 picture for Ukraine and 1 picture for Russia, highly unbalancing the discussion on purpose because they wanted to bolster their point as true, when it is not. Anyone with a semblance of morality should see corruption in this way of carrying out dialogues and discussions.
This is completely all over the map, so I’m dismissing most of this as unresponsive and returning to the original point: I don’t think bringing USSR’s history in the 20th century is as pertinent or helpful to understanding the relative influence of Nazism in the armed forces in the Ukraine in 2022, I think OPs characterization relied on analysis more proximate to the present day and more directly related to social forces that speak to what is happening there.
You’re now throwing a whole lot of unrelated stuff at the wall all at once talking about things independent of that comparison: saying there’s “formalized” representation in the Ukraine army, bringing up how it’s a “whitewashing” and how OP is disingenuous etc. etc.
I’ll just note that these versions of reality don’t align with what I’ve seen in western media™, which have noted that those arguments appear to be emphasized out of proportion to their significance, and the backdrop that these arguments are occurring in, is one where they are functioning as a propaganda role in justifying intrusion in Ukraine, and have largely been dismissed by sources I follow that have commented to the NYT and NPR.
I suspect you’re just going to that that argue that characterization as western lies, and demand elaborate, point-by-point thousand word explanations, and insist that failing to engage with you in such a manner means I’m scared or whatever. I’m just gonna roll my eyes and move on with my day. That’s gonna be the process in disputing anything: I’ll make one point, and the subject will expand to cover a dozen new things.
The point here is that the history of USSR in the 20th century isn’t as relevant to the convo as you were trying to suggest it was.
Except Nazism is more than just an archaic relic, and is actively thriving and has deep roots in Ukraine’s institutions and military for a while now. I have seen your POV across Lemmy threads and know your stand already.
…which is exactly how significant the threat of Nazism poses to the world outside of US-EU hegemony, noted by this nice tweet chain https://twitter.com/non_philosophy/status/1498000420815396872
Ok, historically the Soviet Union deserves alot of credit for kicking Nazi ass. Most of it, even.
China? Huh? Are you talking about the Japanese? They were allied with Nazis, and they were bad, but they weren’t Nazis themselves. And this is an important distinction, because if you refuse to make it, then “Nazi” means nothing more than just a really strong synonym of “bad”.
Given how much “bad” there is in the world, then nearly everything and everyone becomes “Nazis”.
The definition of bad is not merely a Nazi person, and Nazism and its proponents are a particular kind of evil, not a casual bad thing. Nazi or NatFash is something else, hence Duginism, while on paper seems Russian fascism, is not the same as Nazism or its end goals in practice.
Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were never the same as Imperial China, and Ottoman Empire was neither like Soviet states nor Anglo empire. In the end, this is false equivalence.
Then please explain the “China have been historically the main protagonists against Nazism” statement. I’m having trouble making sense of it. I agree that Russia/USSR was one of the main protagonists (if not the main one), but China?
I’m just not following.
20-30 million people each died from China and Russia during WW2, fighting the Nazism threat. This is also related to the “Black Book of Communism” lies that are often spouted to discredit the role of socialists during WW2, since Hitler managed to label Nationalist Fascism (NatFash) as National Socialism (Nat-Soc/Nazi). Hitler created the Natsoc/Nazi label to get votes from working class and differentiate themselves from monarchist conservatives, but in reality fascists were always opposite of socialists. The correct term is Nationalist Fascist, or NatFash.
The Nazis or their ideological allies in Eastern Europe never set foot in China. Did China send troops to Europe to die? Was there some little known front in central Asia that they never taught me in school? Did the Chinese employ psychic soldiers to fight against the occult Nazi threat like out of Hellboy, whose souls were promptly eaten by Cthulhu?
Russia’s a given. Everyone knows about that. I don’t dispute it. China? China didn’t fight the Nazis that I am aware of. I don’t feel like I’m alone in being unaware of that. Enlighten us.
Not sure what this means. If you’re saying that the two have conflicting ideologies, sure. Again, never knew anyone to dispute that. Even the people who make the comparisons are coming from a third and distinct ideology, which sees little functional difference between the two. They’re not equating them to be literally the same.
If you say so. I didn’t realize we were playing stupid word games where you think you’ve struck a blow for global Marxism by insisting that they should be referred to by a slightly different label, 30 years after most of the last of them died of old age.
That’s not wrong. I’m just pointing out both also have their history of ethnic cleansing and cultural supremacy. And i’m also pointing out that just because some structure did something good a while ago doesn’t mean they can’t do something bad (and vice-versa), especially given the major political changes there were since 1945 all around the world.
Please get educated. You seem to indicate either that the top-level domain of a domain domain, or a specific language, is an indicator of State-sponsored propaganda: that makes no fucking sense. And if you want me to post more links about neo-fascism in Russia, i’ll gladly put up a compilation tomorrow when i find the time :)
Please stop grifting with le both sides.
Maybe it is finally time for me to step up against grift. The comments were not enough.
From your recent comments:
This has been the core of what you stand for. You never “jump(ed) on any occasion” about what Ukraine did to Donbas in the past 8 years, and you always wanted to deflect what NATO did since the 90s, 2014 and now. Frankly speaking what you are doing is disgusting, and if I do not highlight it, everyone will believe your “both sides” grift in this instantaneous moment.
Not saying that Russia is a bastion of tolerance but the problem with this comprison is that while the linked article only lists a handful of cases of Nazism, Ukraine on the other hand has memorials for Nazis and have large paramilitary forces that openly display Nazi insignia and they are provided training by Canada at least. Not sure which other western countries have helped them but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more. One of the offical accounts related to Ukrainian military tweeted about trearing bullets with lard for use against Muslim “orcs”.
You could say that Russia being a capitalist country is maybe not idealogically opposed to fascism but use the history of the Great Patriotic War for nationalistic purposes. I am not sure how true that is because I don’t know much about Russia. But equating Ukraine which glorifies Nazis and had neo-Nazis brought to power in the 2014 coup seems like a false equivalence to me.
Exactly. The significance is not that Nazis exist in Ukraine. Nazis exist in the fringes everywhere in the West. The importance is that they hold even a fraction of state power and influence. And they are quite influential.
But do they? Do they really? My understanding is that the closest you get in the political sphere is the Svoboda party. They had one election directly after Russia invaded Crimea where they were politically successful, but in recent years they have struggled to even maintain viability thresholds. Then there’s Azov, but every indication is that the Ukrainian armed forces have been working to bring them to heel. I’m sure you could some dude mouthing off about how Putin is a Jew trying to take over Ukraine, but that’s a far cry from “quite influential”. It’s an indication that Ukraine needs to be left alone so that it doesn’t have to make hard choices about allowing anti-Semites in its armed forces and can focus on cleansing its civil society.
Svaboda and Right Sektor are leftovers from the Maidan. Their purpose has been served. Remember that Ukraine is a US puppet. The leaked Nuland-Pyatt phone call reveals that the US state department was hand picking the Ukrainian government. After the transfer of power in the Maidan Coup, they focused on PR. But as for the neo-nazi battalions, those are still useful to them.
The fact that you think the nazi problem in Ukraine is just “one guy calling Putin a jew every now and then” shows me that you truly don’t know what you are talking about. Or you are just willfully ignorant.
Thanks for acknowledging this, the discussion on Lemmy would be easier if we started from this (honest) point rather than spewing propaganda from every side. Please note i also know relatively little about Russia: what i know i know from ex-USSR political refugees i’ve met throughout my life so i’ve got close to zero academic knowledge but plenty of anecdotes and homebrew political analysis (from an anarchist perspective).
That’s precisely what i’m saying. If you follow the links in my original post (two of which are written by russian collectives) they’ll even argue that Putin’s is a direct fuel of both neo-nazism (there were, i don’t know if it’s still the case today with this new State narrative, government support toward neo-nazi groups) and a revival of Russian fascism (Putin has given a lot of power to the orthodox church).
If you’d like to read more from both russian/ukranian perspective on the topics of neo-nazism and fascism on both sides (Ukraine/Russia government), i strongly recommend the articles published on crimethinc.com since mid-february.
There is a symbolic difference: Neo-nazism is a reverence to Hitler and his specific ideology, but fascism is an evolving beast and can take many forms. You don’t need swastikas or antisemitism to obtain fascism. In this sense, fascism is very much alive and well on both sides of the border.
Let’s take another example: France has strong laws against nazism and racial discrimination, but they are never applied. France is a deeply racist country with structural racism at play on many levels. That leads to contradictions like Eric Zemmour: the guy was paid to be every day on public television spewing hatred (against women, against muslims, etc). It only stopped a few years back when he was condemned for encouraging we deport all muslims from France (suggesting “it’s been done before” in reference to Hitler and the jews), yet the next week he found a very comfortable spot appearing every day on a private channel. The guy is now a candidate for presidency who like Trump back in the day all media advertise for. This guy is a pure product of French society, which on paper is supposed to stand for the opposite.
France is supposed to be anti-racist, but glorifies racist police abuse, or figures like Christopher Columbus or Jules Ferry. The law tells us little about actual political context somewhere. The situation is rude for antifascists both in Ukraine and in Russia, and i personally stand in support of them both against their respective government.
Thanks for writing a post that is meant to federate on what should unite us. I have no problem admitting that knowing which government is the worst is difficult, especially while the conflict is ongoing and propaganda is used heavily by any army.
It’s good to remid everyone that no matter what country you defend or prefer in any conflict, fascism is a danger growing fast in Europe aberywhere. Stay critic of any “side”, and remember that war is fueled by nationalism.
Any way, thanks for the great post <3 !
In Ukraine, since the Maidan coup, being a communist is illegal, and the communist party of Ukraine is outlawed..
There are no laws against neo-nazism in Ukraine.
In Russia, communism is not outlawed, and the CPRF is the 2nd largest political party in the country.
There are explicit laws against nazism in Russia, and it is 100% illegal.
The revival of Ukrainian nazism is in full-force: there are hundreds of new memorials, streets, stadiums, etc being named after Stepan Bandera and other pogromists. 2
Also, only one of those countries voted against condemning nazism:
Also the lithuanian source is sus, considering lithuania also has never outlawed nazism, and like Ukraine, has a ton of nazi monuments erected since its color revolution.
This is because in the former USSR communist parties are not real communist parties, but rather they are right-wing Russian nationalist parties. Don’t let the label fool you, because it’s just the Russian imperial party, so for example of the communist party in Ukraine had its way Kyiv would be a puppet regime of Moscow.
Maybe if communists on Lemmy disagree with you, the CPUSA is saying “abolish NATO”, the communist parties of Ukraine and the KPRF don’t agree with you, then maybe it’s not that they are “fake communists.” Maybe it’s you that isn’t a real communist
It should be clear what they are attempting to do, from what they did in the below comments. They “don’t give a shit about NATO. NO to fascist Russia.”
I find it really curious that the link referring to Nazism in military “on the Russian side of things” to be from one of the countries that can get as anti-socialist and as pro-NATO as possible, Lithuania. Really interesting. Almost as if there is a whiff of suspiciousness to it.
Of course Russia’s government is inherently fascist. Putin and his regime are right-wing nationalists and racists.
This is false. Nazism is not legal or in Russia’s system, the way Azov Battalion exists in Ukraine.
Moreover, Ukraine is a puppet of 3 oligarchs. Channel 24 of oligarch Rinat Akhmetov, channel 5 of oligarch Petro Porochenko and 1+1 and TSN of oligarch Kolomoiskiy. Everyone who becomes a President is a puppet of one of these oligarchs, like Zelensky who is a President right now whose overlord is oligarch Kolomoisky. Zelensky has banned Porochenko’s Channel 5 in the countrt from what I know.
Russia is only anti-fascist in name, but fascist in its real character. Ukraine can have as many oligarchs as it wants, which doesn’t justify Russia invading it.
I agree that it is not anti-fascist except in name.
How is it fascist? It is authoritarian, oligarchial, tyrannical, and abusive. But fascism didn’t have monopolies on these qualities.
The Italian government was not just fascist, but Fascist, as they invented the name for it (even if they didn’t solely invent the ideology). However, of course Germany gets to be the textbook example, simply because they had cool uniforms and the accent. One might make the case that Francoism was fascist, I wouldn’t waste much breath arguing against that. Portugal could even get an honorable mention.
Eastern Europe had a bunch of wannabes hopping on Germany’s bandwagon, at least when they were still winning. If there’s fewer than a dozen of those groups I’d be shocked. Hell throw in the fascist sympathizer parties from the UK and the US too, though it’s arguable how influential they ever became.
Some of these groups even survived in a real way into the 1970s, hiding and in some cases, not really hiding.
And of course there are a bunch of groupies who like to commit petty crime and yearn for fascism (usually Nazi fascism), but they’re barely more than LARPers. Obnoxious, criminal LARPers, but still.
There aren’t any more real fascists. Anywhere. They all died of old age years ago. This doesn’t make the world some fairy tale utopia… there are other kinds of evil. But calling everyone that you don’t like a fascist/nazi is infantile, inaccurate (at best), and counter-productive.
Thus, it would be difficult for anyone to be “anti-fascist” in the year 2022. It’s difficult to oppose that which does not exist. Those that claim to be so are just grandstanding. We have other problems now, barring the appearance of time-traveling zombie SS agents from a parallel dimension.
That is false unless you want to spout uneducated NATO propaganda.
I’ve lived in the former USSR and witnessed it with my own eyes. I don’t give a shit about NATO. NO to fascist Russia.
Okay NATO Nazism apologist.
OK Russian Nazi apologist.
Not really addressing the point of your post (sorry!) but could you provide resources or outline how/why communes could/would not possibly end up as warlord-led tribes? History and the world rather paint a picture of a naturally violant humanity that fails to peacefully resolve conflicts and solve global problems unless restricted by states with a monopoly on the use of force.