I haven’t made a post regarding this in a while, so I guess I’ll make another to get an updated version of our thoughts.

When will the US fall? How do I help make it happen? Will it?

I’ve been thinking a little bit about the future of the United States and the world as a whole and believe that the U.S. must fall before it and the rest of the imperial core can make any meaningful systemic change (and the end to imperialism, brutal capitalist wars, and any potential solutions to climate change).

With that being a prerequisite for a socialist change and a better world, my question remains - how the fuck is that going to happen? When will it happen? Will it naturally collapse due to contradictions in capitalism? Or is there going to have to be hope of a socialist revolution? If it’s the latter, I have very little hope, assuming it requires the American populous to do it. Maybe when more people’s conditions worsen there will be a larger sense of revolutionary activity but with what I’ve been seeing around my area and online it is just status quo liberal “vooot” garbage that will lead us straight to destruction.

Our political actors and capitalist rulers seem hell-bent on destroying the world to keep their great lives while the rest of us wither away. Our ruling class is so powerful, what are we supposed to do? Is there any chance of a revolution? Do we have to hope and pray that Xi and other AES states will liberate us or just wait til the bombs start flying and the sea levels eat up Florida before we finally have a chance to boot this shit?

A lot of this might be just incoherent rambling, I don’t know. I’m stressed out so my apologies. Thanks for reading this far if you did.

Camarada Forte

When the Statesian Revolution and the French Revolution happened, it began the complete rule of the bourgeoisie. The nascent bourgeoisie could only do this because they consciously organized themselves as a class, and politically organized a revolution.

Like every decaying capitalist system, the United States can go either in the direction of socialism or in the direction of fascism, imperialist war and aggression, or another form of capitalism which will manage the crisis but preserve the bourgeois state and law.

The United States can only move forward in the direction of socialism if the Statesian proletariat organize a revolution for that, otherwise the bourgeoisie will continue to rule, only changing their form of dictatorship.

Do we have to hope and pray that Xi and other AES states will liberate us

That will never happen. No country can install a revolution in other countries. A revolution is a historic process, with historical subjects. In this example, the U.S. proletariat would easily be compelled by the bourgeoisie to fight against Chinese interference because anti-China propaganda is already hegemonic in the country.

The U.S. proletariat would have to be convinced of the necessity of the revolution for one to happen. And a revolution can only be successful if there’s full agreement of the vast majority of people, otherwise it will fail.

It’s hard for me to conceive that the political integrity of the nation could be preserved in a revolutionary moment. Undoubtedly, socialism would be preferred in one region over another. Byzantium and the Holy Roman Empire come to mind. What if there was strong support in one region over the other, would breaking away seem a realistic outcome to you? America is so bloated, I think at least Puerto Rico could successfully secede in such a scenario. Is it possible or desirable to keep the whole empire, would a revolutionary struggle require the whole nation’s majority support?

KiG V2

I don’t think the U.S. balkanizing into several capitalist, fascist, socialist etc. states in entirely unreasonable to think might be a possible future.

It’s more likely that America will Balkanize and the various formations that take its place will have independent revolutions. Rome is a good example in general I think. It didn’t just “fall.” It lost its hegemony and slowly withered away over centuries. Just like Byzantium, there might be some country that still projects itself as “America” but it will be seen as a shadow of its former self.

I will dispute that another socialist country can’t liberate another capitalist country. I’m not saying that they can or should do all the work, and I agree you need a huge portion of a country’s own proletariat to have a successful revolution though.

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Isn’t that kind of what happened in Tibet? Maybe not the exact same, because the Tibetans rose up against the colonialist-backed slave-owning landlordist monks, but China helped.

Similar for Poland and Ukraine and the Soviet Union.

KiG V2

China would (hopefully) help a USian socialist revolution, but it would have to exist on its own first probably. I figure they might match our efforts if that makes sense.

That’s what I think is most likely as well.

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I think in the US there needs to be an intensification of ORGANIZED political struggle. Americans in general poll very progressive. Emphasizing things like the Citizens United SCOTUS ruling to the point everyone understands how America is no longer a democracy will go a long way for people to be radicalized. Communists need to strategically call on the first amendment protections to talk about communism. Most American communists are young and urban, yet we claim to support the peasantry. Yet, I hardly ever see an explicit connection between the two in popular American or communist rhetoric. We think of the rural folks as backwards, but who did Mao go to? A simultaneous and non opportunistic campaign to connect urban and rural interests would go very far, further than I think most might think. Selecting strategic rural districts would be more productive.

The problem in America is that the population is highly divided and political orgs tend to fail at emphasizing what unites people, which for us is the right to the fruits of our labor. Maybe the largest hurdle in America would be dismantling those perceived divisions. But, if we are careful and strategic in our efforts, we could connect seemingly disparate topics; a key to any political struggle. This is something the GOP does well, which is why they can have a correct conclusions but for the worst reasons possible, like with Russia, and have great popularity among the working class.

A lot of reactionary talking points about LGBT+ has always been a moving target. Once gays were vilified, then it was same-sex marriage, then it was feminists, then trans people, then it was abortion(not lgbt issue, but a gender issue), what’s next? Same sex marriage again?

A lot of Americans are simply uninformed and don’t have an opinion developed, so a non-combative approach to possibly sensitive topics should be encouraged. When we become overly rigid on pure rhetoric, we open the door to distrust from and of the people. Allow space for people to have the wrong opinions, then address them. I genuinely believe most people are simply ignorant; with patience and compassion, we can get most people’s support. It’s a rule that the most extreme stances are the most fringe, these are the ones that get coverage and attention. Don’t vilify average people!

So if I had to break it down I’d say:

  1. Patience and resolve; this process will take a long time.
  2. Clearly and concisely define the shortcomings of the status quo, and why it needs radical change. Be careful not to alienate the people, alienate the bourgeoisie!
  3. Define and emphasize what unites urban and rural, how that benefits the people and how that connects to revolution. a) create cells in very consciously selected rural areas to spread political theory and education.
  4. Have compassion for the backward regions and people of the nation.
  5. Be strategic!!! We have very limited resources and people, but we can overcome that if we pick battles we can realistically win.

It is the status quo which is radical, senile and insane. If we can help people see the truth of that, we will go far. At the very least, people will move out of the way. It should be taken for granted that all this struggle cannot be waged at the expense of PoC, Natives or the LGBT+ community; the most exploited. No tolerance for opportunism or adventurism. That is my slightly informed opinion

Yang Wen-li

I’d add that the reason for the destruction of the American labor movement is that the US is the center for global capitalism, we fund capitalism. The capitalist have crushed the labor movement, gutteted the CPA, and set up feds to infiltrate all left wing movements the second they start. This is thanks to basically infinite money coming in from the very advantageous trading position of the US.

In the multi polar world this of course cannot be the case. Once the US no longer can enforce the capitalist world order they will loose a bit of ability to control left wing movements. We are already seeing this with the rise of DSA and the DNC’s absolutely pathetic attempts to stop it.

I don’t think the US will ever truly “fall.” It will just continue to degrade into absolute fascism. There’s not going to be some overnight earth shattering break. The “international community” will just continue to distance themselves from it. We definitely aren’t there yet. If anything I think all this Ukraine shit from the west has been the empires “test” to see who’s still loyal to them. The emperor presented their foot to see who would still kneel down and kiss it. Who would sacrifice their civilians for the kings favor. All of Europe bent the knee it seems. Some of the “3rd world” as the media would call it did turn away. So there’s that.

Honestly it may take nuclear war or at least complete domestic fascism to make most Americans wake up. For what you can do at the moment, join psl, cpusa, dsa or even socialist alternative, whatever’s active in your area, educate friends and family, try to minimize the damage of capitalism on your community (through unions etc),and protest imperialism.

Honestly it may take nuclear war or at least complete domestic fascism to make most Americans wake up.

Posadism much?

I didn’t say I wanted nuclear war, It’s just that it’s gonna get worse before it gets better. However I wouldn’t mind if UFOs came down and saved humanity/j

Earthlings will need to liberate themselves before they will be admitted to the Interstellare

I agree that amerikkka is not likely to reform itself, it’s going to take a critical mass of people and support to depose the sadists. But they have nukes so that’s the issue, if they didn’t the u.s. could go like Ukraine where Russia is the rest of the world.

Well, my opinion on this is that the US government has been so far really good at keeping revolutionary threats at bay, so any change must come from outside. Only once socialism gains enough momentum and persuasion power elsewhere will an actual transition be possible.

I’m not sure though how much of a US fall is necessary. Maybe it’s just a matter of the US becoming internationally less relevant. Maybe the US will transition by itself to a different model once it no longer finds it reasonable to exert power over the rest of the world.

Well, my opinion on this is that the US government has been so far really good at keeping revolutionary threats at bay, so any change must come from outside.

Consciously or not, you’re reproducing the “permanent revolution” Trotskyist thesis, but change can only happen from the inside. And the consequence of your self-defeating argument is that the Statesian communist movement should do nothing, just sit and observer hopelessly whatever their own bourgeoisie decides.

The most powerful weapon the proletariat of every country in the world is organization. And through a strong, resilient, encompassing organization, a revolution can be done. But it’s a slow process. For years the communist movement in the U.S. was falling behind, and in many respects it still is. But the only way out is organizing the workers through a revolutionary organization.

In the U.S., the most advanced party in this respect understanding is the PSL. If the coming convention of the CPUSA is able to change the political line of the party to a revolutionary instead of a reformist and opportunist as it currently is, perhaps they can also be a force for good (but that may be overly optimistic)

change can only happen from the inside

I think this is just the other dogma that opposes Trotsky. For revolution in a place like the US/core, there needs to be both external and internal historical processes because the imperialist system is not limited to the geographic core.

The internal process is mostly anti colonial resistance (which labor organizations have actually failed to consistently be a part of). The external process has to do with AES, multipolarity, and the return of Chinese civilization to a prominent position (also something labor organizations in the west have failed to consistently be apart of supporting).

I think change has to happen from the inside primarily. One aspect that’s powerful about China is that it’s quickly becoming an example to the world. Even libs and cons I’ve spoken to who “hate the govt not the people” think it’s one of the best run countries. This soft eminence of power that it exerts by doing nothing puts pressure on bourgeois democracy and economy to step it up, but they can’t. Their only way out for their bs economies is through war profiteering.

SIDE NOTE: I believe that this whole Ukraine proxy war is waged solely for profit. First push enemies so far that they wage a war on their borders, then you and your buddies sell weapons to your preferred side, then profit. Your “side” doesn’t even need to win! It’s a pretty good scheme.

But tbh America will end by fading away into irrelevance. I think it’s already started happening.

It’s clear to me, short of nuclear Holocaust, America cannot destroy the revolutionary struggle of the masses of the world, and the external pressure of climate change, and wealth inequality will lead to an opportunity and yes, it can be pushed along by the outside, but if it is too explicit and too forceful, it would risk delegitimizing this hypothetical revolution. It is a later stage of revolutionary struggle anyway. Highly desirable, but not necessary. First things first; get popular support.


That could be true. When do you think that will happen?

I guess I’m not either, I was just looking at it from an imperial core dominating the world point of view. It doesn’t necessarily have to fall.

I can’t see a different system being born in the U.S. outside of fascism like QueerCommie said lol

Not sure about any of this… Maybe China will eventually gain dominance and take the rest of the world along a very different path, some people say that could happen before 2030, but all we can do is guess.

That “different model” most likely being domestic fascism

Yang Wen-li

Very sad to think facism is the likely outcome. It’s like watching a rabid animal suffer but not being able to put it down out of fear for your own life.

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