America belongs to the natives, and arguably to the stolen African population that manually built it’s current wealth. The anglosaxon settlement is illegitimate.

Seeing some conflation of “country (or, nation-state)” and “nation” in the comments. They aren’t necessarily the same thing.

Black Panther leader Huey Newton on whether the US constitutes as a nation. Scroll down to “Raectionary Intercommunalism.”

Also, philosophically, what defines legitimacy? It’s hard to argue against the fact that over time, the US has developed its own culture and languages to an extent. If that’s the case, should communists view the domestic US population as part of a US “nation” or as a multicultural colonized population composed of various subclasses?

I’m not drawing a strong opinion either way. I definitely don’t think I’m qualified to. Just wanna raise the question for others to discuss

100% illegitimate. It can’t even follow its own treaties, the highest law of the land according to its constitution. It’s only “legitimacy” is its might, it’s ability to destroy. Something that won’t last forever.

“Between equal rights, force decides.”

— Someone

IMO, whether a settler colony is legitimate depends on the position and opinions of the surviving indigenous people; in Amerika’s case, it should also depend on the former slaves and their descendants (I’m sure they can find a good solution/compromise together with the indigenous people). I’m reasonably confident that most of the people in the aforementioned groups are not particularly satisfied with Amerika in its current state, so I would say that Amerika is not a legitimate country.

If no indigenous people have been there for a very long time (for whatever reason, even if it’s because they were killed by the settlers), it might be considered legitimate. It also depends on whether the original inhabitants were forced off the land

It will never be considered legitimate because the removal of the native population was by force and genocide.

To clarify, I’m saying that a) my opinion isn’t important (but I do consider it illegitimate, for what it’s worth), and b) that last paragraph is more relevant for territory changing hands through war or other means across centuries (e.g. I consider China a legitimate country despite the claims made by various separatists).


I’ve always wondered how South American countries can be viewed. They’re part of the Global South but the Spanish and Portugese speaking people took the land from indegenous people as well.

Edit: it’s discussed below lol

The USA is illegitimate.

You aren’t legitimate just because you got away with your crimes… So far.

As other have said, it is a settler colonial state. But, it’s a settler colonial state with an incredible impact on the world; This is what gets in people’s heads.

With Israel, we can see the obvious rape and genocide cause its a day to day basis. Plus, they have no where as near as much propaganda reach as the US. Pretty much everyone in my school, even the hwhitest liberals, are well aware of the struggle by Palestinians. They know Israel is not a legitimate nation. They also know Indigenous Americans are still getting fucked by the US. But they don’t know, the US is illegitimate. Why is this?

First of all, it has most infectious propaganda outlets known to man. This makes looking at the US from a non colonial gaze near impossible. We know it was built on genocide and slavery–hard for them to deny this–but its difficult to understand that it still is. This plays into the second part, that it’s most obvious territorial conquest is not in living memory. The only way to see the settler colonial state for what it is, is to look at it through a systemic lens.

Id like to start with a thought experiment, let us say all of those who read this suddenly become phantoms; You are capable of conscious thought but you cannot interact with the physical world.

You stand idly by for 250 years, as Israel happens to colonize almost all of the Arab world. The Arab population is reduced to the low millions. Those who have survived are crammed into small safe havens with no industrial capacity and no self sufficiency. Those few Arabs who are lucky enough to consolidate their own wealth, can only muster unproductive businesses that are based entirely on the flow of currency (like the infamous Indigenous Casino)-- and yet still bend their knee to the Israeli bourgeoisie with little struggle.

You have watched as the Israeli state has rooted into the Arab world. It is systemically benefiting from the exploitation of not only its lands, but its people too. You have seen this mechanical bourgeois state dress itself up as a patriotic popular nation. It hasn’t gotten any more sovereign, just larger.

Okay thought experiment over. Clearly Israel is here just a fill in for the US. I have a combination of more to say and more to learn. Id like to talk/learn about decolonization processes.

I have a similar question and that is how LatAm plays into this? What is the balance with their sovereignty (if any) and indigenous sovereignty?

We know the US stole land from Mexico, but wasn’t that stolen land itself? We support LatAm states but is that only because they are in the periphery?

This is coming from an ignorant gringo yankee; I am just curious of the difference between the US and Canada’s colonization and the LatAm colonization.

Most of LatAm is mestizo, with both European and indigenous heritage. This is not to say there are not issues with racism and oppression and other indigenous rights issues, but it’s not really 1:1 the same situation as anglo america, nor between the different regions/countries. I’m not really qualified to add much more though unfortunately


To add my 2 cents from the Mexican perspective (other latam countries might be somewhat similar but I’m not sure), the colonial modus operandi was different here. While the US wanted a white ethnostate and did all they could to exterminate the native population, Spain chose to enslave the native population instead and create a caste system. The tribes that resisted slavery were exterminated, though. After independence, slavery was abolished and all Mexicans were given the same rights. The early independent government (early 19th century) promoted mestizaje (race mixing) as a way of creating a homogeneous national identity. We are also taught in school that most of us are mestizo, in other words, a mix of Spanish and indigenous. For that reason, most Mexicans self-identify as mestizo. However, up to 21.5% of the Mexican population identifies as indigenous.

Up to date there have been very few reparations or affirmative actions for indigenous peoples. After centuries of colonialism and racism, most indigenous people are very poor and live in marginalized communities that have their resources constantly predated by the expansion of capitalism. Also, racism still exists and it’s very ugly. There are lots of issues really. Those are some of the reasons the EZLN stood up to fight. They also want proper political self-determination and representation.

There’s also a sizeable Afro-descendant community that was just recently recognized by the government.

So, it’s a different situation than that of the US. I won’t go as far as to say that today’s Mexico is a settler colony, but there’s a lot of work to be done to decolonize either way, to remove and correct the vestiges of colonialism and racism, and elevate indigenous people to the political and social level that they deserve.

Regarding the stolen northern territories, I don’t need to explain why the US takeover was terrible for the Mexican population there or why it was a blatant, unjustified act of imperial expansion that should be condemned to this day. Suffice to say that Texans killed and beheaded Mexicans for money under government orders.

I’m interested to know your opinion on the best path forward for Mexico. Decolonizing is a complicated process and I think it will look different everywhere it happens. Here in Hong Kong for example there has been very little race mixing, so decolonizing is mostly going to be in the form of legal and cultural reform, and I imagine much less complicated than for Mexico.

Well, for starters it would involve ratifying and complying with the San Andrés Accords that the government signed with the EZLN but hasn’t followed through to date. Giving indigenous peoples permanent/proportional political representation and congress seats both in their respective regions and in the federal level. Giving them proper self-determination, returning them their ancestral lands and respecting whether they want industrial resource exploitation in their communities or not. Teaching indigenous languages in school as second languages, maybe according to the region. Affirmative action to repair the poverty inherited from colonial slavery. And so on. I think the EZLN website is a lot more eloquent on this topic.

Alrighty, thanks for the input.

Im well aware it isn’t 1:1 though i feel it is important to understand all settler states and colonized nations tho. Seems LatAm will be a driving force in lessons of decolonization.

Wait, is there any great sources on South Africa fighting apartheid and paving ways for decolonization? Im aware as long as the white hegemonic Imperial Core stands, full on decolonization is impossible. I now realize I am historically ignorant of South African history, current even.

The Kaffe

Both are Settler Colonies. Both need to be decolonized. Bolivia and Cuba are making strides to decolonize and destroy racialized labor divisions. A multi-National state will need to replace the USA as it sits today. This includes Canada, because the Blackfoot tribes are split across the northern border and should be reunited as a Nation/Confederation with full autonomy. Similar situations exist with the Salish peoples in the PNW and the Alaskan natives.

Israel as a state should be abolished and Palestine should be given full sovereignty over its lands and Israeli people and Palestinians should have equal rights, protection, and representation under Palestine.

Not enough people recognize that settler colonialism is still ongoing in all the America’s. It’s only thanks to the socialist nations that there are examples on what the decolonial process will look like.

América is a white supremacist colonial empire based on black slavery. 48 of the states are practically ethnically cleansed. The process is still ongoing. I find it hard to justify its existence without white-supremacist talking points.

It is a nation that must fall, preferably peacefully, but who knows, there are lots of weapons and anger there.

I used to think peaceful decolonization was at least possible, but it’s looking more and more unlikely with all of the white nationalist terrorist attacks that the state is essentially sponsoring.

Yeah, I think things will be grinding and messy. It’s really sad. But the empire must fall, as all have before.

Yes. Basically all of its land was stolen from natives or other countries (Mexico). Even most of the land reserved to natives by treaties with the US government is occupied by settlers.

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