The fall of the USSR was truly a terrible thing for everyone except the oligarchy. I know they didn’t have the nicest of LGBT stances but they had the best chance to fix the Tsar erra homophobia.
At this point - genuinely curious what was written here that inspired so strong a reaction. I suspect, however, from a partial quote available in other comments, is that deleted comment reflected a view commonly held by a sizable part, perhaps even majority of people in the discussed country. Perhaps it was phrased in an unconsiderate form? If so, perhaps local ban was called for - if the goal is to create a specificly “safe place”. If the goal is a honest discussion of a regional phenomenon, perhaps it would be worthwhile to investigate historical, cultural and demographic issues that may have lead to such viewpoint being so widespread.
Okay, time to hit a big one once and for fucking all and get off Lemmygrad for good. Everyone outside of our borders be like “ebil christianity, it made em russkies homophobes!!!”, “ebil puttler oppressing such homo russian population!!!” but have no idea that even proper commies unanimously stand against all this rainbowy shit. No, I’m not talking about CPRF, I’m talking about everyone but them. Reasons? Ohhhh boooy, get some air. 1. All this LGBT shit being different cases of mental and physical problems. Caused by different reasons, of course, but the nature of those cases still stands. AND YOU CAN BAN ME NOW, BECAUSE I DO AGREE WITH IT. 2. Why in the fucking universe would COMMIES of all things be bothered with this shit? Idk about Europe, America or other decadent rupturing hellhole, but in our parts all this LGBT stuff is so microscopic that you just do not need to bother. We here stand for the oppressed majority, not some groups of weird minorities. If you accentuate all this crap inside your steel-clad universal movement you’re literally causing internal split, because this way you will have a very vocal group which has different interests in mind. You do not need that. It can be weaponised and in the West they already weaponised it, you have your “beloved commie LGBT agenda” working for CIA and whatnot, being integrated into modern lib ideology. AND YES, I DO STAND FIRMLY WITH OUR RUSSIAN COMMUNISTS ON THAT TOO, WE DO NOT NEED TO BOTHER WITH LGBT IN COMMUNIST MOVEMENTS. This entire problem will solve itself once communism is in, one way or another, so we do not need to bother dealing with this libshit. Also, another point. It is a general tradition here to NOT put out your sexual life on display. If you really, reeeeeeally wanna for some reason to still sell all this crap here despite what I said - try to do it unlike in Europe, 'kay? Without parades and running around almost naked with rainbow flags. The general stance is that you can do whatever the hell you want with your love life, but do not. FUCKING. BOTHER. OTHERS. Especially if it’s something weird. Well, I’m done. Enough venting. Fuck this. I’ll be gone. Time will tell who is right in the end.
Lemmygrad is still quite small, although it has grown a lot this year, and it’s inevitable that people will see each other somewhere else on here and recognize each other as well. (edited for clarity)
It’s not so much a problem on reddit for example because you can just create your own community and moderate it how you want. But most people on lemmygrad I’d wager are on the “local” setting which shows posts from the whole instance and not just what you’re subscribed to.
To protect our LGBT comrades who might feel unsafe sharing such a tight community with this user the only solution was a global ban. We could also have let a debate happen but once again our comrades would have to defend their existence to someone who does not care for it, and that’s not something that should happen so frequently.
I gave them a year off to hopefully reflect on this and we’ll see if they still care about lemmygrad after a year and if they still hold the same opinion then.
Just to put it out there. Just to speak on it from a western position in response to this person’s post.
There was antihomosexual violence BEFORE there were these ostentatious parades. There is antihomosexual violence DURING this period of these parades.
It hasnt changed the reality of LGBTQ people as far as those common latent desires of anti queer violence. It would be very easy to simply write off homophobia as a reactionary/fascist phenomina that can be laser focused and dealt with.
But there is regrettably very based communists who will look the other ways or ignore the violence. They maybe wont participate in the fascist slaughter.
…But Im supposed to stick my neck out for communism today so that tomorrow my comrades can f*g drag me? What an AMAZING bargain. What a beautiful future a queer like me gets to look forward to.
You can kill us all. You can let the rabble have their blood letting. It wont bring down your landlord.
It’s very easy. Dont kill us. Dont paint us with a monstrous brush. Id trade all the pride parades in the world for queerness to just be taken as a typical, normal human thing.
It’s okay though. My firearms are equal opportunity. Your communism wont stop me from feeling like I need to dedend myself and my loved ones.
Let Russia handle its own affairs though. Homocolonialism and Homonationalism is some seriously fucked shit. I aint here for that.
To support this comment I think it’s fair to say I’ve dropped a few tankie walls of text in my time here and I’d do again dammit if it meant genuine progress and education on issues that affect me.
If people came in good faith and asked “I don’t get this please help me understand” provided I wasn’t exhausted I’d engage because that benefits both parties and I absolutely take contextual factors into account in these discussions.
The above however was not that, it was fueled by anger and reactionaryism and not the sort of person who wants to listen and understand but someone who’s decided that’s how it be and I’m not defending my existence to someone who’s already decided its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Not certain if there would be a point in an any further discussion of the topic, but I can not help but think of the quote: “We must never stop explaining.” Because opposing forces can, do, and will further weaponize any disagreements and splits.
While I agree with Ratette and Kanzler that queer people shouldn’t be expected to argue for their very existence and basic respect, and that this is reason enough to ban someone, I would like to offer you a bit more of a Marxist take on the situation.
This thread was asking about a specific social relation: the oppression of queer people in Russia.
The comments then, were a place for people to discuss the historical and material conditions that led to this social relation.
This particular user’s tantrum showed anger at the very existence of the discussion. If someone is unwilling to engage with (or more, is angry at the very existence of) a discussion about the material and historical conditions that give rise to social relations, I struggle to see what a Marxist-Leninist forum has to offer them, and more, what they have to offer a Marxist-Leninist forum.
Lemmygrad is a confederation of communities bound together by the social contract stipulated in the main site’s rules. In the course of one comment, despite knowing full well it would get them banned, this user engaged in sectarianism, bigotry, disrespect, and promoted and fueled the very division they were railing against.
Such behaviour is a direct contradiction with the social dynamics of the agreed-upon forum rules, and as such, the most prudent course to resolve the contradiction was to ban the user, and thus reinforce the social contract that we all must agree upon when creating accounts here.
If the user were to resolve some of their own internal contradictions (such as promoting division by arguing against division, claiming themself as an ML while refusing discussions about historical and material conditions leading to social relations, promoting capitalist ideals of cisheteronormative family structures in a misguided attempt at subsuming such capitalist structures within communism which could lead only to continued class disparity and thus never true communism) they would be more than welcome to return.
In fact, nothing stops them from making a new account right now, and engaging once more, provided they have, at the least, resolved enough of their internal contradictions to have learned to keep such thoughts to themself or else face a repeat ban.
Opposing forces can, do and will weaponise anything, just as you say. I do not see why it is worth to expend energy on such morons. Remember, Pareto’s principle. Use your energy among 5 people who are willing to listen and be humble, instead of 1 who refuses to.
"Have you tried explaining it to us through polite and considered discourse?
We won’t listen to you but as an oppressed minority its technically your responsibility to educate us oppressors as we are far too busy oppressing to do it ourselves."
/s
Imagine running someone over and then telling them to ring the ambulance because only they can explain the situation properly 🤣
This is one of those situations where I shouldn’t have to put myself into a traumatising engagement to explain to someone who doesn’t want to listen in the first place.
I’m not achieving anything and in this situation it’s clear that even if I did the person won’t listen or trust me on it.
I’ve dropped enough walls of text in the past and on this thread to articulate why their position is untenable as have others.
This wasn’t a “someone explain it” scenario.
It was “this is my position and I’m not changing it”.
Explaining isn’t going to help right now and only make me feel worse and any other affected party who has to sit and engage or read the back and forth.
Allies can pick up the slack in these situations but I’d not expect anyone to just piss their time away on someone who isn’t ready or willing to listen and learn.
There’s enough comments and explanations in this thread and one user even offered sources and reading material.
To maintain this “uwu we must never stop explaining” veneer just feels the same energy as libs telling people to keep voting and trust the system will work. It won’t and when the material evidence suggests that explaining won’t do any good then I don’t think I or anyone else is at fault for writing someone off as a lost cause because they chose to take that position when they dropped their stupid rant.
I feel you mean well in your comments but my existence because of homophobia and transphobia is fundamentally affected and negative as a result of the aforementioned views and takes.
I have to be aware of people in public and put safety behaviours and actions in place to protect myself from people who share those views whether that be from physical assault or verbal.
There’s genuinely places I can’t go at certain times because I could be hurt as a result of bigotry.
Having to deal with that daily and thats not even including all the systemic bigotry and discrimination and then to have people erase my oppression or act like it’s not a big deal when it’s purportrated and enabled by those same people is enough to make you sick with anger.
Imagine if white people went to globally southern countries “well you haven’t considered our contextual factors in why we support colonialism and I can’t help but feel you as the colonised need to explain more to help us understand despite us making fully clear we won’t listen” lmao.
We’d all be flipping out over white chauvinism, coloniser mindsets and racism so why am I as a queer person expected to do the same to a homophobe?
The point is we don’t waste our time with coloniser libs if they aren’t engaging in good faith but there’s an expectation on queer people to confront their oppressors constantly and explain to them why they are wrong and that feels hypocritical that we are expected by the majority to kindly tolerate their bigotry and address it daily when the majority can’t even be bothered to meet us half way.
I’m incredibly disappointed. I haven’t been here long, but from what I’ve seen you had some fairly good takes, at the very least inoffensive.
To see something like this is quite saddening, not only due to the rampant hatred towards LGBTQ+ people, but also how there is no real marxist analysis to your perspective.
I thought it was common knowledge that Pride parades exist due to the triumphs over abhorrent abuses the LGBTQ+ community has had to face, and still continue to struggle against; the fight isn’t over.
When it comes to your comment about “shoving it in our faces”, what do you mean? Pride parades don’t happen everyday so what actually bothers you?
Queer people are literally killed just from holding hands in public. Is that too much for you? If a heterosexual couple walked hand-in-hand, what then?
Let’s not act like Pride is the reason for homophobia; Pride was born from it, in spite of it. You’d know that if you bothered to do even the slightest bit of research. Queerness and Marxism go together like peanut butter and jelly.
Learn from this.
(I know they’re banned but maybe they’ll see these comments anyway)
It’s dogshit takes like this lurking on this site that is making me step away and engage considerably less if not entirely after this tbh.
It makes me feel unsafe and uncomfortable to be around people who have such a immature and baseless hatred or dislike for me because my existence demands a level of self awareness and introspection from people like you.
I’m done with having to see garbage like this from clown incels like you and the fact you got up votes for this comment betrays the other vile little reactionaries that lurk here.
You’re a fucking communist, take your head out your arse, address your crypto-homophobia and grow a fucking brain.
cfgaussian already said what needed to be said for the most part but let me articulate to you why your infantile vibe communist take will never pan out:
If communism won, if the revolution was successful but lead by and internalised your garbage take then we’ve achieved not equality and communism for all working class with a true understand of their individual struggle and how we can build true equality but a patriarchal cis het communism. We’ve created another ruling class and subservient class.
Communism is equality for all comrades. Yes there is reactionarism and ignorance we need time to reducate around but we need to build a revolution with intersectionality in mind to make sure we uplift everyone.
If we went with your shit take, we’d have communism for cis het men. Not women, not queers, not trans and not other ethnicity people withing the nations communism was achieved.
You’d create another class system, one where you sit in control with no respect or understanding for others and that sounds pretty damn lib to me.
You say communism will fix queer rights but going off your comment if you lead the revolution you’d essentially ignore queer struggle and the specific issues we face in society (systemic homophobia, violence, discrimination, ignorance and toxicity from straights) and then just assume it would all disappear and sort itself out? Lmao how when even you can’t be arsed to do a bit of fucking homework.
You’ve not educated anyone, you’ve not understood our struggle, you’ve not even tried to give a shit.
No it will create a flawed patriarchal cis het communist regime for you, your cronies and nobody else.
So if we revolte and now we are all communist, does that mean the inherent homophobia present in most countries across the globe will just vanish without education? Get a fucking grip.
You’re erasing our struggle and the violence we go through because you can’t be arsed to give a shit and read a book and just assume because you’ve never physically hurt a gay person that everyone will somehow just stop being homophobic? If you hold these dogshit takes then you HAVE aided in hurting queer people by virtue of erasing their struggle and expecting them to find equality on their own against a majority of scum like you. How are we supposed to get people like you to understand if even the “communists” can’t be arsed to read and understand their own reactionary bs?
Also it’s not about us pushing our sexuality out and making a big deal. I fucking hate this “I don’t mind gay people I just want it shoved down my throat” strawman homophobic shit stain take people like you seem to think is somehow legitimate.
What gay person pushes it down your throat? Nobody. Nobody but niche Internet personalities and social media users remotely fits the narrative you’ve tried to justify and run with.
You know what I as a trans and queer person has to deal with from clowns like you? Almost daily comments about my sexuality and how it’s something they don’t understand and therefore is aberrant, constant sexualisation and objectification of women, constant critiques and ignorance around who I am.
Who’s pushing what on who here? Seems to me your forcing your cis het fragility on me most of the time.
How ironic, that when I go out with straight people all I hear about is straight shit and the toxicity and sexism associated with your wacky toxic relationship dynamics yet here you are acting like gay people wanting to exist and asking you to respect our existence and what makes us different is somehow us forcing our sexuality onto people.
Please grow as a person before your edge and stupidity cuts someone.
Its frankly depressing how random comrades you talk with for months turn out to be homophobic assholes. It seems those kinds of “comrades” still need purging.
And as the de-facto manager of Catra I am giving the mantel of “angry rant god” to you. 👑
Why are our rights a debate comrade? Why are our literal right to exist an after thought to those who claim to oppose inequality?!
Because they see it as a problem, as some sort of strange error. They for some reason can’t accept a reality where LGBTQ+ people exist. Also ignoring that we have always existed. Its insanity.
The time for argument is indeed long over. You do not have to be pleasant with those like that.
It’s dogshit takes like this lurking on this site that is making me step away and engage considerably less if not entirely after this tbh.
I disagree. Realise that these moments are what trims the fat from this place. You need to become more resilient. There are 20 downvotes for the 3 upvotes there, so they got ratio’d.
I am resilient, I’ve tolerated way more than just this comment on here and I’ve got my own mental health to protect.
What I thought was a safe space as a ML for me is sadly not and I don’t log in to here to then see people I share a community with slander women, feminism, queers, trans etc purely because of ignorance and edge. It’s tiring and exhausting.
I came here to get away from reddit takes, not have to tolerate them from communists.
And that user was only banned from genzedong, not the entire site so I’d argue that we only “trim the fat” when it’s anti-communism but when there’s transphobia, homophobia or sexism it tends to be a sub ban and I find that a bit shit tbh because those same problematic individuals are not “trimmed”.
Its unfortunate, and I think the takeaway from this is that we have a very long road ahead, before transphobia becomes a condemned thing across the entire scape. A really long road, just to put more emphasis. It is fucking atrocious that there are both kinds of people, those that are transphobes, and those that refuse to comprehend the coexistence of a trans culture in society. I mean, there are also TERFs.
I am part of the minority within a minority, that are not just cool and acceptable, but friendly with trans people, while being a cis het male. It was almost a decade ago when I used to be like others, unable to comprehend this coexistence, and with this ignorant attitude, and it took a while.
I know that it is a tough pill to swallow, but society progress bar is stuck at a low percentage. And most of internet is used by Westerners (reddit is 55% USA/Canada and 30% West EU), and you know the relationship of imperialism and normalisation of cis het gender/sexuality, so unless we develop a culture of non Western/ised internet spaces over atleast a couple decades, the effects of Westernisation will continue to exist.
What you see as this banned poster, is merely the echoes of that West imperialist periphery mindset that exists in Lemmygrad like the rest of the internet. And then there is the problem of communist discourse itself being such a tiny blob compared to the liberal-conservative dichotomy (thanks Cold War), that uniting communists means the trans issue/agenda naturally takes a backseat.
i get your point but being resilient is hard enough when you already have to do that in daily life and then see this dumb shit in a communist space too. It’s tiring having to censor yourself all the time then finding out the one space you don’t feel like doing that has bigots hiding in plain sight too.
That I understand, but they also got pruned out of the community immediately. The thing is, it needs to be understood that this is part of the struggle. It is not just the trans community that faces it, its just a different flavour of bigotry. There are plenty people that have bad ideas in their heads, some have less of them, and beyond a point people refuse to learn (example the one that got banned).
This is part of the struggle. This is why resilience is important. This is still a safe space, and I think its better if people mask off themselves like this.
Yeah I mean I can say from experience it was way, way worse on reddit when that American patriotism bullshit was at it’s peak. Any post shitting on American patriotism would have a 10-20% amount of downvotes and a load of comments from closeted right wingers who now unironically identify as "maga communists’.
A vulgar, reductionist, and tragically short sighted view. Patriarchy and cis-/heteronormativity are integral pillars of the bourgeois superstructure that serve to enable and perpetuate capitalist exploitation (as Engels, Kollontai and others explained, the nuclear family is a product of class society and the vehicle through which unpaid reproductive labor occurs, and both women’s and LGBT liberation are a threat to that, hence why these are twin struggles) in much the same way that white supremacy and ableism do and should be fought for the same reasons. Plus, you only harm your own movement by adopting a bigoted position on gender and sexual orientation in the same way that white workers in the US were harmed by the racism that the ruling classes inculcated in them to break their solidarity with potential black and brown allies. Whether or not the oppressed group is a minority is insubstantial, a reactionary view on these issues only serves capital, it splinters the working class and turns it against itself, it is a typical divide and rule strategy (read Du Bois on “the wages of whiteness”).
Communists are not tailists, we do not pander to the most reactionary instincts of the most backwards sections of the masses (neither the Bolsheviks nor the Chinese communists adopted tailist positions on the question of women’s liberation for instance even though the broad masses were steeped in a traditionally patriarchal culture that necessitated waging a fierce struggle to get them to accept gender equality). We educate them and we elevate the most progressive and revolutionary elements among them. Your position reeks of opportunism and Menshevism.
I don’t like this, but my view is, it’s an issue for the Russian people to solve. Reason: me talking in the west about Russian state-sponsored homophobia is not going to change the government’s policies, but it will tend to swell the 24/7 anti-Russia hysteria in American and Europe, which is a real danger insofar as it gears people up for war. I certainly wish Putin wouldn’t hand the west talking points. But Russia right now is an important ally of AES states, and so it’s best to hand that entire fight to comrades living in Russia – nothing we do will make the situation better, and could very likely actually make things worse.
fun fact; homosexuality was completely normal in russia up until the monarchs the tsar was founded and they tried to westernize the country and introduced anti-homosexuality laws to try to appeal to the west more (they wanted to be more christian)
it worked and because of that the church in russia got really fucking rich and infulential, to the point that the ussr could not get rid of it and why it is still a prevelant force in maintaining russias stance on homophobia.
The Austrian royal councilor Sigismund von Herberstein described in his report Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii (Notes on Muscovite Affairs) his observations during his travels in Moscow in 1517 and 1526. He stated that homosexuality was prevalent among all social classes.[5][6] The English poet George Turberville who visited Moscow in 1568 when Ivan IV ruled Russia during a bloody phase, was not shocked by the carnage, but about the open homosexuality of the Russian peasants.[7] Adam Olearius also reported that homosexuality among men existed on all levels of society and was not treated as a crime.[8] There are also reports of homosexual relationships between women.
given that homophobia is newer than ‘lgbt ideology’ which seems to just have been a naturally occuring thing till christians pissed on everyones morality it does make russias stance on this cringe, because it is a christian take for the most part and christianty is cringe as hell.
christ = the west so at the end of the day it is the enternal anglos fault
Ivan the IV was the second ruler after Russia established a monarchy, the reforms against homosexuality began to creep in with the monarchs adherence to christian doctrine. (this regression on homosexuality actually happened in a lot of places cause of the same thing)
edit:
I was mistaken on this meant the tsar not monarchy
ah yeah i got mixed up with the tsardom/vs traditional monarchy they had.
I meant the tsar, Ivan was the first person to establish this
I should clarify I really dont know Russian feudal history all that well; ive just looked into this before and seen that homosexuality was a common practice up untill about the 1500’s
yeah the russian orthodox church is really the root of all the bullshit reactionary stuff under the surface of russian culture, it sucks.
even when stalin/lenin tried to go against it and legalize homosexuality/abortion there just was not the public support to maintain these policies due to the churchs infulence
Not an expert, but my guess would be that it is yet another illustration of how it’s plummet into capitalism Was disastrous across-the-board for its peoples
This is a Dengist community in favor of Bashar al-Assad with no information that can lead to the arrest of Hillary Clinton, our fellow liberal and queen. This community is not ironic. We are Marxists-Leninists.
If you haven’t already found it, this GitHub page is an excellent collection of sources about socialism, imperialism, and other relevant topics, made by @dessalines and others.
The fall of the USSR was truly a terrible thing for everyone except the oligarchy. I know they didn’t have the nicest of LGBT stances but they had the best chance to fix the Tsar erra homophobia.
It’s bad. That’s the story.
removed by mod
At this point - genuinely curious what was written here that inspired so strong a reaction. I suspect, however, from a partial quote available in other comments, is that deleted comment reflected a view commonly held by a sizable part, perhaps even majority of people in the discussed country. Perhaps it was phrased in an unconsiderate form? If so, perhaps local ban was called for - if the goal is to create a specificly “safe place”. If the goal is a honest discussion of a regional phenomenon, perhaps it would be worthwhile to investigate historical, cultural and demographic issues that may have lead to such viewpoint being so widespread.
spoiler
God you ask why we care so much and yet you write off a 2 paragraph manifesto
deleted by creator
I know, was replying to that, should have clarified better. Sorry!!
deleted by creator
Click the modlog button at the bottom of the page or the sidebar, and you can see what was removed.
Lemmygrad is still quite small, although it has grown a lot this year, and it’s inevitable that people will see each other somewhere else on here and recognize each other as well. (edited for clarity)
It’s not so much a problem on reddit for example because you can just create your own community and moderate it how you want. But most people on lemmygrad I’d wager are on the “local” setting which shows posts from the whole instance and not just what you’re subscribed to.
To protect our LGBT comrades who might feel unsafe sharing such a tight community with this user the only solution was a global ban. We could also have let a debate happen but once again our comrades would have to defend their existence to someone who does not care for it, and that’s not something that should happen so frequently.
I gave them a year off to hopefully reflect on this and we’ll see if they still care about lemmygrad after a year and if they still hold the same opinion then.
Just to put it out there. Just to speak on it from a western position in response to this person’s post.
There was antihomosexual violence BEFORE there were these ostentatious parades. There is antihomosexual violence DURING this period of these parades.
It hasnt changed the reality of LGBTQ people as far as those common latent desires of anti queer violence. It would be very easy to simply write off homophobia as a reactionary/fascist phenomina that can be laser focused and dealt with.
But there is regrettably very based communists who will look the other ways or ignore the violence. They maybe wont participate in the fascist slaughter.
…But Im supposed to stick my neck out for communism today so that tomorrow my comrades can f*g drag me? What an AMAZING bargain. What a beautiful future a queer like me gets to look forward to.
You can kill us all. You can let the rabble have their blood letting. It wont bring down your landlord.
It’s very easy. Dont kill us. Dont paint us with a monstrous brush. Id trade all the pride parades in the world for queerness to just be taken as a typical, normal human thing.
It’s okay though. My firearms are equal opportunity. Your communism wont stop me from feeling like I need to dedend myself and my loved ones.
Let Russia handle its own affairs though. Homocolonialism and Homonationalism is some seriously fucked shit. I aint here for that.
To support this comment I think it’s fair to say I’ve dropped a few tankie walls of text in my time here and I’d do again dammit if it meant genuine progress and education on issues that affect me.
If people came in good faith and asked “I don’t get this please help me understand” provided I wasn’t exhausted I’d engage because that benefits both parties and I absolutely take contextual factors into account in these discussions.
The above however was not that, it was fueled by anger and reactionaryism and not the sort of person who wants to listen and understand but someone who’s decided that’s how it be and I’m not defending my existence to someone who’s already decided its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Not certain if there would be a point in an any further discussion of the topic, but I can not help but think of the quote: “We must never stop explaining.” Because opposing forces can, do, and will further weaponize any disagreements and splits.
While I agree with Ratette and Kanzler that queer people shouldn’t be expected to argue for their very existence and basic respect, and that this is reason enough to ban someone, I would like to offer you a bit more of a Marxist take on the situation.
This thread was asking about a specific social relation: the oppression of queer people in Russia.
The comments then, were a place for people to discuss the historical and material conditions that led to this social relation.
This particular user’s tantrum showed anger at the very existence of the discussion. If someone is unwilling to engage with (or more, is angry at the very existence of) a discussion about the material and historical conditions that give rise to social relations, I struggle to see what a Marxist-Leninist forum has to offer them, and more, what they have to offer a Marxist-Leninist forum.
Lemmygrad is a confederation of communities bound together by the social contract stipulated in the main site’s rules. In the course of one comment, despite knowing full well it would get them banned, this user engaged in sectarianism, bigotry, disrespect, and promoted and fueled the very division they were railing against.
Such behaviour is a direct contradiction with the social dynamics of the agreed-upon forum rules, and as such, the most prudent course to resolve the contradiction was to ban the user, and thus reinforce the social contract that we all must agree upon when creating accounts here.
If the user were to resolve some of their own internal contradictions (such as promoting division by arguing against division, claiming themself as an ML while refusing discussions about historical and material conditions leading to social relations, promoting capitalist ideals of cisheteronormative family structures in a misguided attempt at subsuming such capitalist structures within communism which could lead only to continued class disparity and thus never true communism) they would be more than welcome to return.
In fact, nothing stops them from making a new account right now, and engaging once more, provided they have, at the least, resolved enough of their internal contradictions to have learned to keep such thoughts to themself or else face a repeat ban.
Opposing forces can, do and will weaponise anything, just as you say. I do not see why it is worth to expend energy on such morons. Remember, Pareto’s principle. Use your energy among 5 people who are willing to listen and be humble, instead of 1 who refuses to.
If someone comes in and tells me “you’re mentally ill, you don’t deserve to exist,” I don’t see why I need to justify my existence to them
Kind stone: “I’ve showed you my bigotry, now justify your existence.”
"Have you tried explaining it to us through polite and considered discourse?
We won’t listen to you but as an oppressed minority its technically your responsibility to educate us oppressors as we are far too busy oppressing to do it ourselves."
/s
Imagine running someone over and then telling them to ring the ambulance because only they can explain the situation properly 🤣
Right, but I don’t stop explaining.
I just don’t do it to walls.
This is one of those situations where I shouldn’t have to put myself into a traumatising engagement to explain to someone who doesn’t want to listen in the first place.
I’m not achieving anything and in this situation it’s clear that even if I did the person won’t listen or trust me on it.
I’ve dropped enough walls of text in the past and on this thread to articulate why their position is untenable as have others.
This wasn’t a “someone explain it” scenario.
It was “this is my position and I’m not changing it”.
Explaining isn’t going to help right now and only make me feel worse and any other affected party who has to sit and engage or read the back and forth.
Allies can pick up the slack in these situations but I’d not expect anyone to just piss their time away on someone who isn’t ready or willing to listen and learn.
There’s enough comments and explanations in this thread and one user even offered sources and reading material.
To maintain this “uwu we must never stop explaining” veneer just feels the same energy as libs telling people to keep voting and trust the system will work. It won’t and when the material evidence suggests that explaining won’t do any good then I don’t think I or anyone else is at fault for writing someone off as a lost cause because they chose to take that position when they dropped their stupid rant.
I feel you mean well in your comments but my existence because of homophobia and transphobia is fundamentally affected and negative as a result of the aforementioned views and takes.
I have to be aware of people in public and put safety behaviours and actions in place to protect myself from people who share those views whether that be from physical assault or verbal.
There’s genuinely places I can’t go at certain times because I could be hurt as a result of bigotry.
Having to deal with that daily and thats not even including all the systemic bigotry and discrimination and then to have people erase my oppression or act like it’s not a big deal when it’s purportrated and enabled by those same people is enough to make you sick with anger.
Imagine if white people went to globally southern countries “well you haven’t considered our contextual factors in why we support colonialism and I can’t help but feel you as the colonised need to explain more to help us understand despite us making fully clear we won’t listen” lmao.
We’d all be flipping out over white chauvinism, coloniser mindsets and racism so why am I as a queer person expected to do the same to a homophobe?
The point is we don’t waste our time with coloniser libs if they aren’t engaging in good faith but there’s an expectation on queer people to confront their oppressors constantly and explain to them why they are wrong and that feels hypocritical that we are expected by the majority to kindly tolerate their bigotry and address it daily when the majority can’t even be bothered to meet us half way.
Check the modlog to see for yourself
Thank you, did check the modlog.
I’m incredibly disappointed. I haven’t been here long, but from what I’ve seen you had some fairly good takes, at the very least inoffensive.
To see something like this is quite saddening, not only due to the rampant hatred towards LGBTQ+ people, but also how there is no real marxist analysis to your perspective.
I thought it was common knowledge that Pride parades exist due to the triumphs over abhorrent abuses the LGBTQ+ community has had to face, and still continue to struggle against; the fight isn’t over.
When it comes to your comment about “shoving it in our faces”, what do you mean? Pride parades don’t happen everyday so what actually bothers you?
Queer people are literally killed just from holding hands in public. Is that too much for you? If a heterosexual couple walked hand-in-hand, what then?
Let’s not act like Pride is the reason for homophobia; Pride was born from it, in spite of it. You’d know that if you bothered to do even the slightest bit of research. Queerness and Marxism go together like peanut butter and jelly.
Learn from this.
(I know they’re banned but maybe they’ll see these comments anyway)
shots fired
not at us
😳
It’s dogshit takes like this lurking on this site that is making me step away and engage considerably less if not entirely after this tbh.
It makes me feel unsafe and uncomfortable to be around people who have such a immature and baseless hatred or dislike for me because my existence demands a level of self awareness and introspection from people like you.
I’m done with having to see garbage like this from clown incels like you and the fact you got up votes for this comment betrays the other vile little reactionaries that lurk here.
You’re a fucking communist, take your head out your arse, address your crypto-homophobia and grow a fucking brain.
cfgaussian already said what needed to be said for the most part but let me articulate to you why your infantile vibe communist take will never pan out:
If communism won, if the revolution was successful but lead by and internalised your garbage take then we’ve achieved not equality and communism for all working class with a true understand of their individual struggle and how we can build true equality but a patriarchal cis het communism. We’ve created another ruling class and subservient class.
Communism is equality for all comrades. Yes there is reactionarism and ignorance we need time to reducate around but we need to build a revolution with intersectionality in mind to make sure we uplift everyone.
If we went with your shit take, we’d have communism for cis het men. Not women, not queers, not trans and not other ethnicity people withing the nations communism was achieved.
You’d create another class system, one where you sit in control with no respect or understanding for others and that sounds pretty damn lib to me.
You say communism will fix queer rights but going off your comment if you lead the revolution you’d essentially ignore queer struggle and the specific issues we face in society (systemic homophobia, violence, discrimination, ignorance and toxicity from straights) and then just assume it would all disappear and sort itself out? Lmao how when even you can’t be arsed to do a bit of fucking homework.
You’ve not educated anyone, you’ve not understood our struggle, you’ve not even tried to give a shit.
No it will create a flawed patriarchal cis het communist regime for you, your cronies and nobody else.
So if we revolte and now we are all communist, does that mean the inherent homophobia present in most countries across the globe will just vanish without education? Get a fucking grip.
You’re erasing our struggle and the violence we go through because you can’t be arsed to give a shit and read a book and just assume because you’ve never physically hurt a gay person that everyone will somehow just stop being homophobic? If you hold these dogshit takes then you HAVE aided in hurting queer people by virtue of erasing their struggle and expecting them to find equality on their own against a majority of scum like you. How are we supposed to get people like you to understand if even the “communists” can’t be arsed to read and understand their own reactionary bs?
Also it’s not about us pushing our sexuality out and making a big deal. I fucking hate this “I don’t mind gay people I just want it shoved down my throat” strawman homophobic shit stain take people like you seem to think is somehow legitimate.
What gay person pushes it down your throat? Nobody. Nobody but niche Internet personalities and social media users remotely fits the narrative you’ve tried to justify and run with.
You know what I as a trans and queer person has to deal with from clowns like you? Almost daily comments about my sexuality and how it’s something they don’t understand and therefore is aberrant, constant sexualisation and objectification of women, constant critiques and ignorance around who I am.
Who’s pushing what on who here? Seems to me your forcing your cis het fragility on me most of the time.
How ironic, that when I go out with straight people all I hear about is straight shit and the toxicity and sexism associated with your wacky toxic relationship dynamics yet here you are acting like gay people wanting to exist and asking you to respect our existence and what makes us different is somehow us forcing our sexuality onto people.
Please grow as a person before your edge and stupidity cuts someone.
Its frankly depressing how random comrades you talk with for months turn out to be homophobic assholes. It seems those kinds of “comrades” still need purging.
And as the de-facto manager of Catra I am giving the mantel of “angry rant god” to you. 👑
Fucking clown energy. There a bunch of fucking communists on here who need to go touch grass before they de-brain themselves with their own stupidity.
I’m done, it’s fucking exhausting.
“Uwu we can never stop explaining comrade”
Balls to that, take your contextual factors and choke on it.
My existence isn’t a debate and my rights aren’t a conversation “we can have”.
Either you engage with reality or you conform to the same Liberal oppression and false space you claim to oppose.
I’m not going to argue 2+2=4 when some reactionary has already convinced themselves it’s 5.
Skfjwjkx3kkekgkwkfekekfkwkfe
Why are our rights a debate comrade? Why are our literal right to exist an after thought to those who claim to oppose inequality?!
I’m sad and tired and it hurts and I just want to be happy for once 😔
I’ll take that mantel 👑 because at this point all I do is fucking is log in, see crap, get triggered and rant.
You’d think I was on lemmy sometimes. I want to help others grow but I’m not a wizard, I can’t make greenery out of toxic sand.
🫂
Because they see it as a problem, as some sort of strange error. They for some reason can’t accept a reality where LGBTQ+ people exist. Also ignoring that we have always existed. Its insanity.
The time for argument is indeed long over. You do not have to be pleasant with those like that.
🫂 yeah it’s like by virtue of characterising it as mental illness you erase a very real thing that’s just not a mental illness at all.
I disagree. Realise that these moments are what trims the fat from this place. You need to become more resilient. There are 20 downvotes for the 3 upvotes there, so they got ratio’d.
I am resilient, I’ve tolerated way more than just this comment on here and I’ve got my own mental health to protect.
What I thought was a safe space as a ML for me is sadly not and I don’t log in to here to then see people I share a community with slander women, feminism, queers, trans etc purely because of ignorance and edge. It’s tiring and exhausting.
I came here to get away from reddit takes, not have to tolerate them from communists.
And that user was only banned from genzedong, not the entire site so I’d argue that we only “trim the fat” when it’s anti-communism but when there’s transphobia, homophobia or sexism it tends to be a sub ban and I find that a bit shit tbh because those same problematic individuals are not “trimmed”.
That’s my bad, the buttons are very similar and I confuse them all the time 🤦
I’ve updated the ban to sitewide.
o7
Thank you, that genuinely makes me feel better 🫂
🫂
Its unfortunate, and I think the takeaway from this is that we have a very long road ahead, before transphobia becomes a condemned thing across the entire scape. A really long road, just to put more emphasis. It is fucking atrocious that there are both kinds of people, those that are transphobes, and those that refuse to comprehend the coexistence of a trans culture in society. I mean, there are also TERFs.
I am part of the minority within a minority, that are not just cool and acceptable, but friendly with trans people, while being a cis het male. It was almost a decade ago when I used to be like others, unable to comprehend this coexistence, and with this ignorant attitude, and it took a while.
I know that it is a tough pill to swallow, but society progress bar is stuck at a low percentage. And most of internet is used by Westerners (reddit is 55% USA/Canada and 30% West EU), and you know the relationship of imperialism and normalisation of cis het gender/sexuality, so unless we develop a culture of non Western/ised internet spaces over atleast a couple decades, the effects of Westernisation will continue to exist.
What you see as this banned poster, is merely the echoes of that West imperialist periphery mindset that exists in Lemmygrad like the rest of the internet. And then there is the problem of communist discourse itself being such a tiny blob compared to the liberal-conservative dichotomy (thanks Cold War), that uniting communists means the trans issue/agenda naturally takes a backseat.
i get your point but being resilient is hard enough when you already have to do that in daily life and then see this dumb shit in a communist space too. It’s tiring having to censor yourself all the time then finding out the one space you don’t feel like doing that has bigots hiding in plain sight too.
That I understand, but they also got pruned out of the community immediately. The thing is, it needs to be understood that this is part of the struggle. It is not just the trans community that faces it, its just a different flavour of bigotry. There are plenty people that have bad ideas in their heads, some have less of them, and beyond a point people refuse to learn (example the one that got banned).
This is part of the struggle. This is why resilience is important. This is still a safe space, and I think its better if people mask off themselves like this.
Yeah I mean I can say from experience it was way, way worse on reddit when that American patriotism bullshit was at it’s peak. Any post shitting on American patriotism would have a 10-20% amount of downvotes and a load of comments from closeted right wingers who now unironically identify as "maga communists’.
deleted by creator
:/
This has to be one of the dumbest takes I have seen here.
A vulgar, reductionist, and tragically short sighted view. Patriarchy and cis-/heteronormativity are integral pillars of the bourgeois superstructure that serve to enable and perpetuate capitalist exploitation (as Engels, Kollontai and others explained, the nuclear family is a product of class society and the vehicle through which unpaid reproductive labor occurs, and both women’s and LGBT liberation are a threat to that, hence why these are twin struggles) in much the same way that white supremacy and ableism do and should be fought for the same reasons. Plus, you only harm your own movement by adopting a bigoted position on gender and sexual orientation in the same way that white workers in the US were harmed by the racism that the ruling classes inculcated in them to break their solidarity with potential black and brown allies. Whether or not the oppressed group is a minority is insubstantial, a reactionary view on these issues only serves capital, it splinters the working class and turns it against itself, it is a typical divide and rule strategy (read Du Bois on “the wages of whiteness”).
Communists are not tailists, we do not pander to the most reactionary instincts of the most backwards sections of the masses (neither the Bolsheviks nor the Chinese communists adopted tailist positions on the question of women’s liberation for instance even though the broad masses were steeped in a traditionally patriarchal culture that necessitated waging a fierce struggle to get them to accept gender equality). We educate them and we elevate the most progressive and revolutionary elements among them. Your position reeks of opportunism and Menshevism.
👏 👏 👏
I don’t like this, but my view is, it’s an issue for the Russian people to solve. Reason: me talking in the west about Russian state-sponsored homophobia is not going to change the government’s policies, but it will tend to swell the 24/7 anti-Russia hysteria in American and Europe, which is a real danger insofar as it gears people up for war. I certainly wish Putin wouldn’t hand the west talking points. But Russia right now is an important ally of AES states, and so it’s best to hand that entire fight to comrades living in Russia – nothing we do will make the situation better, and could very likely actually make things worse.
fun fact; homosexuality was completely normal in russia up until the
monarchsthe tsar was founded and they tried to westernize the country and introduced anti-homosexuality laws to try to appeal to the west more (they wanted to be more christian)it worked and because of that the church in russia got really fucking rich and infulential, to the point that the ussr could not get rid of it and why it is still a prevelant force in maintaining russias stance on homophobia.
given that homophobia is newer than ‘lgbt ideology’ which seems to just have been a naturally occuring thing till christians pissed on everyones morality it does make russias stance on this cringe, because it is a christian take for the most part and christianty is cringe as hell.
christ = the west so at the end of the day it is the enternal anglos fault
I’m going to need some sources on that, comrade
the names of the people I sourced are in my quote feel free to look em up.
it was an observation a lot of people made while visiting pre-monarch russia.
XVI century is hardly “pre-monarchy”
pre-monarchy for russia, not for europe.
Ivan the IV was the second ruler after Russia established a monarchy, the reforms against homosexuality began to creep in with the monarchs adherence to christian doctrine. (this regression on homosexuality actually happened in a lot of places cause of the same thing)
edit: I was mistaken on this meant the tsar not monarchy
Okay I feel a miscommunication here. If Ivan IV was the second ruler after monarchy, what does the IV in his name stand for, in your opinion?
ah yeah i got mixed up with the tsardom/vs traditional monarchy they had.
I meant the tsar, Ivan was the first person to establish this
I should clarify I really dont know Russian feudal history all that well; ive just looked into this before and seen that homosexuality was a common practice up untill about the 1500’s
That’s interesting, I didn’t know about any of that, thanks for the info
Capitalism and religion really ruins everything
yeah the russian orthodox church is really the root of all the bullshit reactionary stuff under the surface of russian culture, it sucks.
even when stalin/lenin tried to go against it and legalize homosexuality/abortion there just was not the public support to maintain these policies due to the churchs infulence
Not an expert, but my guess would be that it is yet another illustration of how it’s plummet into capitalism Was disastrous across-the-board for its peoples