This is so convoluted by goebbels propaganda and the west’s eagerness to repeat nazi propaganda. Does anyone have any good sources on it? I don’t really trust goebbels or the liberals that repeat what he said.

It was carried out by Germany, and the bodies were dumped on the Soviet side. The bodies had been shot by German ammunition

Apparently, they didn’t have to cross over into Soviet lines. A 2011 Ukrainian archaeological dig determined that they were from 1941, the year the Nazis took that area.

The bodies weren’t moved, they murdered those people at the place, but it was after the Barbarossa started, germans captured the Poles after Soviets retreated and then murdered them. But then Goebbels thought it’s gonna be a propaganda banger and they “discovered” the mass graves and told the world the victims were murdered before they really were - the difference was exactly who controlled the territory. There are proof victims were still alive after soviet retreat, and few of the people suposedly murdered in Katyń turned up dead at another nazi mass murder site in Ukraine, which proves they were in nazi hands for time enough to even be moved around occupied territory.

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The war had not yet started as of 1940

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In fact, recent archaeological discoveries(2011) have confirmed that the bullets and the bodies are from no earlier than 1941. It wasn’t until 1943(the Nazis had captured it in the first half of 1941) that the massacre was unearthed. This just so happened to provide Goebbels the perfect propaganda to push during the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/clogic/article/download/193976/190041/227652&ved=2ahUKEwjB3c6rmdL7AhUIkWoFHestC-gQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1qfJn-BzgLimlYaVMy0k8X

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This was a good source. Thank you!

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Seanchaí (she/her)
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Did you actually read this?

“Sites [sic] no sources”

Davis, Jerome. Behind Soviet Power. New York, N. Y.: The Readers’ Press, Inc., c1946, p. 99

Volkogonov, Dmitri. Stalin: Triumph and Tragedy. New York: Grove Weidenfeld, 1991, p. 360

Nekrich and Heller. Utopia in Power. New York: Summit Books, c1986, p. 404

New York Times, June 29, 1945 p. 2

Lucas and Ukas. Trans. and Ed. Secret Documents. Toronto, Canada: Northstar Compass, 1996, p. 197-198

And there’s more. The page is literally a collection of excerpts, nothing here is written by a single person. It is entirely a compilation of sources.

Only the first one is written in first person, as it is a personal accounting of events. And the fact that something is “written in first person” is not proof that it is inferior, that’s a nonsense western academic convention that ignores lived experience as a credible source of information.

I’m not making a statement about Katyn one way or another, but it’s pretty ridiculous for you to cast away an entire website of sources without having read literally any of it, then claiming that it’s all some personal blog with no sources, thus proving that you haven’t read any of it.

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I don’t know why you’re saying this to me. I’m not making an argument one way or the other about Katyn, as I said already.

I was just letting you know how completely and abjectly wrong your statements about that website were. It did cite sources, and one of them being in first person isn’t proof of credibility or lack thereof.

That was the sum total of my comment.

I truly don’t care to read what you wrote about Katyn because I’m not interested in the topic one way or the other. Just thought that you, as a person engaged in the conversation, should know that your dismissal of the website was predicated on a complete misunderstanding of the very website you were dismissing. As someone who does seem to be interested in engaging in this topic, you should at least engage based on the realities of what people are linking to you instead of your ill-informed preconceptions. If you’d like to explore whether the sources linked are accurate or reputable, that’s fine, but you should at least read them before making false claims.

You should also cut the whole “use your brain” and “just think” rhetoric, I promise you you’re not intellectually superior and being condescending in your comments isn’t going to win you anything.

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Did you even read any articles? I provided plenty in other post. All your questions are answered there.

Germany had neither the capabilities or motive.

Seriou-fucking-sly? No capabilities? Did you missed every other nazi mass murder in the war? Killing 20000 people was completely routinely for them. No motives? It was like killing four birds with one stone: they were killing polish officials anyway in occupied territories since the war started, they were in the middle of Barbarossa so they just killed them and moved, it provided them with one of the best anticommunist pieces ever, and allowed - in the absolutely critical time - to sow political discord between polish London government supported by British and USSR.

insane effort

What insane effort? They killed the people literally as quick stop, just one of many massacres, not even bothering to set up any different methods than usual, then send some bogus commission and accused their enemies of their own war crime. Neither of that was any much effort.

A United Nations report found German shell-casings and tried extremely hard to twist the scenario into a “idk both sides are equally likely” barest modicrum of false equivalence and guessing.

I don’t buy that in the recently industrialized Soviet Union, Soviet soldiers would be forced to scrounge for nazi guns.

Common Italian W

“Unfortunately, we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly will soon ‘find’ that we shot 12,000 Polish officers. That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass-graves as possible and then blame it on us” - Joseph Goebbels, private diary

I think one of the more confusing parts here, is that it was actually the British spreading these lies, FDR didn’t believe it and joked about it with Stalin, and Stalin used Churchill’s belief that it happened to argue privately with FDR that Churchill and the British were nazi sympathizers and as soon as the war was over they would turn traitor and become even worse than the fascists and nazis.

Thank you!

Do you know where I can read that entry of his diary in full please?

sorry couldn’t find a non paywalled source but this is the book and I’m pretty sure the right page

https://archive.org/details/goebbelsdiaries100goeb/page/316/mode/2up

This was awesome! Thank you! I read a few of them.

Also, it’s not as if the people killed were angels, either

I have a faint memory of Grover Furr having written a bunch about Katyn.

I’ll look into that.

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https://youtu.be/gxYdGSIP0d0 Grover Furr helped to push against the current narrative of Katyn Warning Long Video

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The propaganda was great cover for the final destruction of the Warsaw ghetto.

The holocaust was known to be going on for years, before it became “big” news. Bits and pieces were known.

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Jan Karski went to UK and US in 1943 where he met with top politicians including Churchill, Roosevelt and Hull, also with tons of officials, military brass, celebrities and other social parasites, showing them proof of holocaust happening. And was almost completely ignored. He did not had the full info though, and it was before the holocaust went in the full extent, but still the systematic extermination of Jews and other undesirables was evident.

You’re right though that only the Soviet offensive allowed for full extent of holocaust to be revealed, and nazis were often making effort to hide their crimes before they retreated, so a lot of proof was probably destroyed, even though the remaining was still enough to make holocaust the best documented genocide in history.

Of course the full scale was unknown, but even according to documents and accounts, it was sometimes an open secret.

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Yeah. Kind of like what’s going on at the Amerikkkan border with Latino concentration camps or with African people enslaved in U.S. prisons.

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